The Smart ADHD Guide to Masking

[0:42] Ian: welcome back to Smart ADHD. Today we're exploring the world of ADHD masking, what it is, why we do it, and how it impacts our daily lives and relationships. It was so good to sit down with Lisa Rabinowitz, a licensed therapist specializing in ADHD and relationships.

[0:59] Lisa is a certified Gottman and Pact couples therapist, and the author of the amazing book, why won't you stop interrupting me? In this episode, we explore the challenges of masking, how it differs between men and women, and why embracing authenticity

[1:15] is a key to thriving with ADHD. Plus, we'll discuss practical strategies to manage, masking, communicate openly, and find the right support systems. It's a great episode. Let's go on with it right now.

[1:28] Hello, I'm Ian Anderson Gray, and this is the smart ADHD podcast.

[1:43] Now if you're a smart, creative entrepreneur or business owner navigating your life with ADHD, This is the podcast for you. Now, I'm no ADHD expert, but I'm eager to share my story on what I've learned by talking with experts, as well as digging into the personal ADHD stories of successful creatives and entrepreneurs.

[2:06] I was diagnosed at age 46, and it answered so many questions in my life. But of course, that was in many ways, only the start of my journey. So let's learn together. Smart stories, smart strategies, smart ADHD.

[2:33] Hi Lisa. Welcome to the Smart ADHD podcast. How are you doing today?

[2:38] Lisa: Great. Thanks so much for having me here. I really appreciate Ian. It's wonderful. I'm doing great today.

[2:42] Ian: Thanks, Lisa. It's it's been as we we've had quite a few conversations. We've met we've met in person at the international ADHD conference in Anaheim, which was great. That's how we got to know each other and we had a great conversation and. I'm really interested to talk to you all about a few things, but in today's episode it's about masking.

[3:01] So first of all, what's your interest in when it comes to masking? Because I know you do a lot with couples, you work with couples, you've got a book, but why are we talking about masking?

[3:11] Lisa: To me the most important thing is understanding knowledge, awareness. And so one of the things I'll do with couples is help them understand that. What, what is happening? Because sometimes the non ADHD partner has no idea that from the minute the ADHD partner wakes up, that they might actually start masking right then, and it could impact so many different things throughout their entire day.

[3:40] And sometimes the ADHD partner is really surprised, they're like, oh, wow, I had no idea that I was actually doing that. So I really want that to be part of the conversation for couples to help just bring understanding and so an awareness and compassion really to the relationship.

[3:57] Ian: That's such an important point. And we're, you're coming back to the podcast and we'll talk a little bit more specifically about couples and how we can help with that, because this is something I've thought a lot about but we're gonna talk a little bit more generally about masking today.

[4:11] I suppose the first question to ask you is, what is masking? I think a lot of us have heard about masking, but can you tell us what it is and can you give us some examples?

[4:20] Lisa: more. Sure. So usually unconsciously or sometimes consciously, someone's going to hide or suppress. Behaviors, thoughts, actions, so no one will know to, to what their hope is, that they're actually trying to be normal, that they're trying to fit into whatever the society expects at that moment. So if I'm in a meeting, blurting out an answer I know is not appropriate.

[4:51] And so how do I. Suppress that and not blurt out. So I might take some notes next to me, which will help me not do that action. Or I might think before the meeting. Okay, so I know we're discussing this topic, what do I wanna say? And so I'm trying to not just say 10 different things and sound like.

[5:16] Does she know what she's talking about? So I'm gonna try to organize myself. I'm trying to prepare myself for that conversation, which if you notice a lot of these different examples is going to take a lot of energy, a lot of focus, a lot of time, which then is going to impact the rest of my day. For instance, by the end of the day, because I've masked all day long, I'm gonna be.

[5:42] Very exhausted and not show up. So great for the evening, for the rest of, whatever is going on then.

[5:47] Ian: Yeah, that, that makes sense. And is part of the reason why so many of us with ADHD mask a lot is because many of us are very intuitive, highly intuitive. We're looking around the room and we're we're seeing maybe facial expressions or uh, and a lot of us can be quite empathetic as well.

[6:07] So we're constantly adjusting the way we act around people. Is that true? Is that masking as well?

[6:14] Lisa: I was thinking as you were just talking about it, I was like that could be masking, right? It could be that we're actually just intuitive and empathic, but we might've also learned that. For instance, in school I can't be jumping around and I can't be just, making, and I know if I make have a disruption in class that I'm gonna be sent to the principals or be sent, have trouble and get into trouble and, with the teacher.

[6:38] And at a pretty young age, we've learned that we need to really be aware of our situation and our surroundings and what is expected in that situation. So I always, I'm thinking, and each person, has to come to the decision and understanding on their own, is this really masking or is this just that I really am intuitive and empathetic and I don't try to I stay outta judgment on that and whichever it is, then we wanna work with that and understand that.

[7:08] Ian: no, that's interesting. I just think about an experience that I had when sometimes, like in conversations can do small talk. I've learned how to do it. I don't always enjoy it, and I think I really enjoy those in depth conversations. And I remember going quite in depth with a few people, and I didn't really know them that well.

[7:25] And I could see that the person I was speaking to was

[7:28] growing away from me slightly. And I could know, I thought, oh no, Ian I've gone too deep here. So I, in immediately I think I was then starting to mask or at least change or try to put a bit of small talk into that.

[7:41] But I don't know. There's what would you say about that?

[7:43] Lisa: Oh, I definitely hear that and understand that because we're trying to balance how, the small talk of the weather and oh, where are you from isn't really gonna keep our attention and as in the conversation, and we have this tendency, like you said, to just go, asking all sorts of questions and wanting to get to know the person and focus on them so much that sometimes you can, notice the backing away or the distance or the let's change the subject.

[8:12] I'm really uncomfortable here. So it really does happen. And I think, when you mentioned the conference, I think so many of us felt so comfortable because. It's just oh, it's just normal. We just do that. And everyone just accepted that, that's just what will happen in the, at the conference.

[8:29] But in normal society at work, at a gathering, right now it's the holiday season and, at these different parties and get togethers, some people just are more comfortable with the, just, surface level conversation. We'll call it that. And so

[8:47] Ian: Yeah. It in a way it is it's safer, isn't it? It but it's, but it can be quite difficult. To do. And I found, like at the International ADHD conference, this is the first time I'd been to it. And it was just such a liberating experience just to see all these people, most of whom were just letting the mask down and just being themselves.

[9:05] And that was wonderful. And so you've probably, I think you partially answered this question, you know what, why is it so common for those of us with ADHD to mask is part of it? Almost like self preservation, that it's almo, it's easier to put the mask on. If we take that mask off, maybe we're allowing ourselves to be too vulnerable.

[9:25] Lisa: I was thinking the same word. Vulnerable. And so it's easy to put the mask on and then show up, the way we're supposed to show up what society expects us to do, and the way that society expects us to show up. And then, when do we take off the mask? I ask my. Different people that I see, like, when do you take off the mask and what's that feeling like?

[9:46] And what would it be like to somehow integrate that? Is there a way to integrate that? And it's sometimes, like you said, you'll go too far and you go realize, oops. And so how do you create that balance in your life that, always putting a mask on, who am I? Am I really showing up?

[10:06] And again, in certain situations I might even say I need to put that mask on because I don't want anyone else to see me struggle with organization, with distraction, with focus, with whatever it is.

[10:23] Ian: Yeah that's a really interesting point because so many others. Compare ourselves with others and particularly in this day and age when, the social media, I know social media's been around for ages, but we're constantly

[10:36] Seeing what, how other people are supposedly acting.

[10:39] And we feel that we need to like that. Is there a difference between men and women when it comes to masking? Now, obviously the, we could be highly generalizing here. There's, it's just, we're all different, but it, generally speaking, is there a difference between how men and women mask?

[10:57] I.

[10:57] Lisa: Such a great question. Again, in general, I think that women, again, is this socialized and, taught from a young age that we're supposed to, connect and make friends and, want to go out with our girlfriends. And so in some cases we'll just be more familiar with, that's when we're gonna mask.

[11:19] And then for some, again, the flip side is maybe I can really, if I pick a bunch of friends that are all also neurodivergent, maybe I don't have to mask in that setting. But again until we really find out who these individuals are in a social setting, we still might need to do it.

[11:35] So I think women feel a little bit more pressure to mask in the social settings where men especially at work. But they're supposed to be, calm, even keeled. And now we didn't get into emotional dysregulation, women, it's, we can give all sorts of excuses.

[11:51] We, women are, I don't even wanna say all the labels, that emotional reg, regulation is okay that they won't be emotionally regulated, but men are supposed to be emotionally regulated. And so if they're not, and there's this, outburst or something like that, we might think, oh, let's put you back in that box.

[12:07] You're supposed to show up there confident and. No emotions. And so I think they probably have a little bit more pressure in that way to mask or, uh, meet the demands of this society about emotions.

[12:22] Ian: That's so interesting. I, the stereotype is that women are more emotional than men and that's okay. And these are stereotypes and there are sliding scales. I, all I can say as a man, like I have felt that pressure

[12:34] to not be too emotional.

[12:37] That's and I, as you can imagine, like with A-D-H-D-I, I'm a highly emotional person I, it's, it is part of the way my, my brain works. And so I've felt probably, I haven't thought about this too much, but maybe like I've certainly thought or people have told me that you're too sensitive.

[12:53] But I've se, but I suppose maybe because I've gone into jobs and work where I have, I'm able to use my emotions in a creative way. Like I, I trained as a professional singer. I'm doing a lot of creative stuff now. So I suppose I have manufactured or surrounded myself or put myself in a career where it's okay to do that.

[13:13] But for many people listening, watching.

[13:16] Whether they're a man or a woman they may be in a situation a job where that is more difficult. So I wanted to move on to the pros and cons, because I think many of us see masking as a bad thing.

[13:30] But are there situations when, and I think you've already covered this a little bit, but are there situations where masking is a good thing?

[13:37] Obviously, bearing in mind that masking does take. A lot of energy and if we mask all the time, we're probably gonna get burnt out. But other situations when masking is a good thing.

[13:46] Lisa: I work with a lot of professionals, and I have to say they, they do find that in most environments, that it is a pro to. Fit in, in the work environment, whether they're a doctor or a lawyer, or an engineer, they have to, the expectations are so high that they have to show up in a certain way.

[14:08] Like you said, you fit, you found a career that you can be creative and that's exciting and brings so much of you to that profession. And many and certainly many people, will gravitate towards those kind of professional careers because they want to be able to use right there, there are so many strengths and positives to being neurodiverse or, having ADHD, but.

[14:35] There's many who are in other professions that's not gonna be okay. You're expected to show, put your mask on and do whatever it is that you need to do that is, so I will say in that arena, I do find it can be a pro to be able to mask, like we're saying. The disadvantage and the challenge is gonna be at the end of the day, how exhausted are you?

[14:58] What kind of burnout, what kind of stress and what kind of anxiety does it cause somebody to be masking all day long? And you can just think about the energy as I go into work that, show up a certain way, have to behave a certain way, act a certain way, speak a certain way, do that for eight plus hours a day by the time I get home.

[15:21] There's the burnout, there's the drain not only mentally, but also emotionally and, the anxiety, the stress, the burnout the, sometimes people find themselves eating, just to try to, stay within the very narrow, description of what they need to do at work and certainly other kinds of addictions and so forth to maintain, calm person at work.

[15:50] Ian: Yeah, there's, this. There are potentially pros, but there are lots of cons as you mentioned. There's a big list there. And not wanting to depress everyone too much. There is hope, but I think we do want, we don't want to sugarcoat these things. These are big issues.

[16:03] And one of the things that, you know in this why, what I want to do in this podcast I do want give hope. I don't wanna sugarcoat things, but it's also. About smart strategies so that there is masking there's putting the mask on, but there's also coming up with strategies so that you can, I'd love to know your thoughts on this.

[16:22] You're not fully putting the mask on. You're not necessarily taking it complete completely off, there's a balance, but. If for example, you're going into work and emotional dysregulation is a problem or you are late for appointments or whatever, there are strategies that you can put into place that will make that a lot easier.

[16:41] You don't necessarily have to put a mask on, so it, how much of that is important in this conversation about masking?

[16:49] Lisa: Oh, it's so important. I'm so glad you're bringing that up because I will frequently send individuals to an executive functioning coach or an ADHD coach and say, let's get some more skills and tools so you're not writing. Lists upon lists to make sure you're ready for that meeting or setting. Sometimes people will set an alarm to, get up in the morning and, that's the, that's your alarm to get up in the morning for some, for instance, if you're masking and having difficulty getting to work on time, you might not only have that alarm set once in the morning, but it could be two and three times in the morning. And then if you start work at nine, maybe you need to set an alarm at eight 30, at 8 45, at eight 50, at 8 55, right?

[17:31] And so it, that could be a wonderful coping strategy to get you to work on time at nine. And that's maybe what they'll suggest. But there's certainly other things. That working with somebody that really specializes and is very trained in helping you not be so exhausted by the end of the day with different tools and techniques.

[17:50] And so I think it's just invaluable to get those resources. And again, what is gonna work with. Some people might not work with others. Sometimes when I'm working with people I can. Based on how many coping skills they come in with and how much masking they're doing, I can just work with them right in, in session and help them Hey, did you ever think about this?

[18:10] And no. What about we try that? And again, it's, it could be everything from having a notepad next to you to write down some things rather than blurt them out to setting the alarms to having little sticky notes. Those are short and quick and easy. Again, depending on how much it's impacting your daily life is how much you'll either need to do some specialized training and just some guidance and some, support. It doesn't have to be so hard. Like you're saying we wanna give people hope that if you have the correct tools and skills, you don't have to mask all the time, all day long. And what would that look like? And I want, I don't certainly I think that the important thing I want your listeners to walk away with is, if I'm doing this.

[18:53] What would it be like to do it a little bit less? And are there things I can do that will help me do that? And just get, I like getting curious. I like getting, let's try it, one day for an hour. And see what happens and see how people react. And can be very exciting and very liberating for people.

[19:12] Ian: It. Yeah, definitely. It's, and that's. Yeah, I'm just excited listening to all that you're saying there, there is hope, and I didn't even know, I hadn't even heard of an executive function coach until relatively recently, but this is so amazing. We might struggle with executive function, we, there are tips, there are strategies, and we

[19:29] Lisa: Mm-hmm.

[19:30] Ian: quite a lot about those on this podcast.

[19:32] So that's great. That's great stuff. So let's talk about. Communication, particularly at work, and everyone's gonna have different situations. Like for me, I work by myself that has its own problems. Sometimes I, even as an introvert I know how much I value conversations with other people, but communicating with clients, that can be an issue.

[19:53] But if you are, if you're in a kinda more traditional workplace when, where you are employed, this is. Bit more tricky, I think. So masking at work, should we, how transparent should we be about ADHD? Obviously, this will depend probably on the country we are in, the employer. Lots of different things, but what, what's how do we navigate this?

[20:18] Lisa: All right. You're right. Definitely depends on which country you're in. So I do work internationally, so I definitely hear different stories in different countries and sometimes it's even different states. And so I would tell the individual first, let's start with. Does anybody talk about this?

[20:35] Does anybody discuss this? For instance I'm gonna be speaking at a corporation, and they've never had a conversation about ADHD before. So that will be an interesting conversation with the teams and trying to, again, give information because sometimes people will say it doesn't exist. Some people think oh no, you have ADHD.

[20:56] So it really depends on the. The environment and what does the higher up say or not say about it? So I have found some to be very open and, oh, if you need help with this thing, we will do it. We'll provide whatever resources you need. Great. Wonderful. Those individuals have easy conversations and we'll be able to discuss things with their employers.

[21:20] And then there's others that, the manager, when you said they said to you like, Hey, you've been late, three times this month. When you try to talk to them a little bit, it didn't go so well. So that means you, you've got to figure this out and figure it out sooner than later.

[21:39] Because I have had many clients I've worked with that have really had issues at work and even gotten fired because of the ADHD. And sometimes they said, oh, so glad you told us. And then wound up having lots of issues. And then sometimes again, they don't even wanna know. And knowing what the laws are in, in your country, in your state, and then, trying if you can to speak to hr, great.

[22:06] If you can't, then again, it comes back to you. What are you gonna do so you can show up at work?

[22:12] Ian: Yeah. Yeah, and I think what's important here is if you may not feel that you have that support structure in your place of work, but you can have a support structure around you. In your own life, it could be a coach,

[22:25] If you are, if you're having counseling or therapy or whatever, but I think that is obviously important.

[22:30] Even if you are getting that support at work I think that is absolutely vital that you have that support structure. You have people around you that are your, I suppose you're cheerleaders. Maybe we're almost out of time for this episode. I feel like, I feel we're only we've only touched the surface, but just my final question really is like, what advice would you have for somebody who is afraid of opening up about

[22:52] ADHD?

[22:53] Because they're afraid of the stigma attached to that.

[22:56] I've been quite reluctant in a way to talk about ADHD. I'll give you an example. Like on LinkedIn professional network.

[23:05] Have mentioned it a few times, but I'm always a little bit reluctant because I'm worried about what people will think, potential clients.

[23:11] There's

[23:11] still that stigma and I think that's partly how I see it, not, it's not just what other, what I think other people are gonna say. So for those of us who are wanting to be authentic, true to ourselves, have you got any advice for us?

[23:24] Lisa: It is so interesting, I have to tell you that I didn't even think about it regarding, for instance, LinkedIn because so many of my friends and connections are ADHD individuals

[23:38] Ian: Yeah.

[23:39] Lisa: And people seek me out because they know that I'll under you'll understand me, Lisa. You get it.

[23:46] And regarding that piece of it, because I hear there's like almost two pieces of this puzzle. I would just encourage you and encourage others to really pull in those resources and people who really speak your language. And then if you're afraid at work, it's maybe starting small, right? Like, let Me try to share something.

[24:10] With my manager and see, and you'll have to know, what is that exactly? I, I've yeah again really cautiously because I've had individuals come back and say they had very mixed somewhere, so happy to understand it. And then others. Weren't really who cares? Your job is to do X, Y, Z, and you do it however you wanna do it, and you better show up and do it.

[24:35] I will say, because I think it's just one quick idea here, which we didn't bring up earlier, which is about body doubling. And if your listeners don't know about it, I think it's so important to understand. So I'm just gonna give one quick plug. That there are a lot of resources for body doubling and body doubling is basically somebody who, for instance, can be on the, I have a report to write, somebody else is writing a report also for the next hour.

[24:59] And you just have that accountability and you can feel free to unmask for that hour while you're writing that report because you know that somebody else is also doing that at the same time as you. And that, that has. Been one of those resources that we didn't mention that I think is really important to mention.

[25:16] And hope that,

[25:17] Ian: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah I, that's always. Always helped me. I'm always a little bit apprehensive about bodily doubling with somebody that I don't know. But there are these resources and tools out there that you can do that, but they, it really does help. It really does help.

[25:31] I think don't do this alone. There are people out there that can help. This podcast is obviously here to help. We, this. I'm hoping this will grow and become a community and help for people. Thank you so much, Lisa. It's been great to have

[25:43] you.

[25:44] on the podcast.

[25:45] Lisa: you. Yes. And I am very confident that you are helping and supporting a lot of individuals, so thank you for all your work. Thank you.

[25:52] Ian: Thank you so much. So all of Lisa's details will be in the show notes. If you could go to smart adhd.me, you can find out all about that. But Lisa, what are you, what's next for you? What you currently working on and how can, where's the best place for people to connect with you?

[26:05] Lisa: All right, so either if they're on LinkedIn, feel free to reach out there. My website counselorforcouples.com is a great place. I know you'll have my different social media handles. So feel free to reach out there and I'll just say, don't forget. Oops, where is it? This is my, my, oh, it turns it around.

[26:24] Why won't you stop interrupting me? I forgot that I was gonna flip it the wrong way. That book is Out and I'm actually working on the second book, but I have to come back and tell you about that.

[26:34] Ian: You heard it here first. That's exciting stuff. So do check out Lisa's book. I haven't read it yet. It's on order. I'm gonna be reading it. I'm very excited about reading that. And thank you, Lisa, for coming onto the show. It's been great. So thank you so much for watching us on the YouTubes or for plugging us into your ears.

[26:49] And until next time, I encourage you to be smart with your ADHD.

[26:53] ​