Unpacking ADHD: Tackling Stigma, labels & Stereotypes

[1:04] Welcome to episode three of the smart ADHD podcast. Now, Dr. Tamara Rosier is back as my expert guest in this episode as we navigate the world of smart ADHD. And in today's episode, we're tackling stigmas, labels, and stereotypes. You see, ADHD is becoming more and more accepted and understood. But, there are still so many myths and misconceptions, stigmas, and stereotypes.

[1:31] You may have heard people say ADHD is just a label, or an excuse, or that surely everyone's a bit ADHD. Or maybe you've heard that it's being over diagnosed, or that you can't possibly have ADHD because you're not hyperactive or late for things. And maybe you're asking those questions yourself. That's what we're discussing in this episode.

[1:50] Now, if you've not come across Tamara, she's been my guest in the previous episodes. She's amazing. She's written the book. Your brain's not broken. And she's had a diverse professional journey encompassing roles as a college administrator, professor, leadership consultant, high school teacher, ADHD coach, and business owner.

[2:10] Through these varied experiences, she has gained invaluable insights into ADHD and its impact on individuals lives. As the founder of the ADHD Center of West Michigan, Dr. Rosier guides a dedicated team of coaches, therapists, and speech pathologists in assisting individuals parents and families as they develop a deep understanding of themselves and acquire practical skills to navigate life with ADHD.

[2:34] Her books, Your Brain's Not Broken, and the forthcoming one, You, Me, and Our ADHD Family, offer practical strategies for addressing the potent emotional dimensions of living with ADHD. Well, let's get on with the episode right now.

[2:48] So thank you, Tamara, for coming back on the show. Obviously, I didn't put you off enough last time. So you're back for some more fun. So we run out of time last time because we went really in depth into what is ADHD. We talked about some of the stigmas attached and, also, the importance of why I'm actually launching this channel. And it's a podcast. Obviously, you're listening to that, but also on YouTube as well. So this YouTube channel and my hope is there's also going to be a community as well. So check that out if you go to smartadhd.me.

[3:21] I wanted to talk a little bit about myths and misconceptions. I think we've all had these. When we get these things spoken to us. It feels to me, I don't know whether it does for you, Tamara, but it feels like almost like a dagger, and it sounds over the top. you did talk to us last time about our emotions are either one or 10.

[3:45] The first thing is that I hear a lot is that ADHD is , it's just a label. So I either hear it from people who think they have ADHD, but they don't want to be diagnosed because it's a label, they don't want it to define them. That was me. I have to admit, I was a bit worried about being diagnosed and maybe using it as an excuse. But also, there is that stigma attached, but also like other people who haven't got ADHD, just see it as a label, maybe as, people having an excuse. What was thoughts on that, on the whole label issue?

[4:22] Tamara: Yeah. before I answer, I just, the coach in me just wants to ask, why do you think you felt that way?

[4:29] Ian: Probably because I had incorrect information about what ADHD was, that might be part of it. And I remember when I was teaching, singing and I had this student of mine who had ADHD and he said he had ADHD. And I remember saying to myself, I said, Oh, this ADHD thing, it's a load of rubbish.

[4:47] No, I didn't quite say it's a load of rubbish, but I just thought, What's all that about? I remember saying those things myself, so I almost assume other people are thinking the same thing. And also it's the whole excuse thing because I've always felt I'm very lazy and we talked about beating ourselves up and all that kind of stuff. So I think probably in there and I'm hoping that you're going to make sense of some of what I just said there.

[5:11] Tamara: Yeah. No, it makes a lot of sense. So there's two groups, neurotypical people or neuro normative, meaning people who don't have ADHD. Okay. People who don't have ADHD, might look at us and go, Seriously, showing up on time. By the way, time blindness is a mark of ADHD.

[5:33] And when I say time blindness, it's not an excuse for being late. I literally don't understand how time works. I don't know if you've watched Doctor Who, but, there's a quote where he's time is wibbly wobbly. And I'm like, ah, I get it! Because I'm more of a Doctor Who kind of understanding time, than in the Western concept of a linear understanding of time.

[5:57] Ian: I like that, Tamara. So basically what you're saying is we are all time Lords.

[6:01] Tamara: You know what? I think ADHD people are all time Lords and we're just confused. We've lost our way. No, that's a different theory. Okay. but we, have this shame inside of us so that we're afraid that others who don't have ADHD look at us because we're feeling the shame and go, Tamara, you're late all the time.

[6:25] I'm not late all the time. This is my fear. Because you're inadequate. You're not enough. You're not smart enough, good enough, whatever enough to just be on time. And we're afraid that neuro normative people look at us like that. And guess what? Some of the time we're right. People do look at us like that.

[6:46] I had a supervisor who did a lot of damage. And she hated all of my ADHD traits. It's before I was diagnosed, but she literally hated all my traits. And she punished me a lot for it. and she did a lot of damage. Sometimes we're actually right. I don't want the label because I don't want those people looking at me, judging me.

[7:10] And then internally, I'm already fearing that I'm not enough. That there's something wrong with me. That my brain is broken. And I heard you say, that's my fear. what if, I'm just not, fill in the blank, good enough, smart enough.

[7:27] Ian: I, and I think something I've heard a lot in the business and particularly in the entrepreneurial space is that we should be in terms of our customers and our audience, we want to be attracting the people who love us. We should be attracting the perfect clients and repelling the people who aren't a good fit.

[7:45] And maybe that's a good analogy here that if there are some people out there who just don't like the whole ADHD thing, and they think we're all lazy and all that kind of stuff, we can help to educate. And that's what there's partly what this podcast is all about, but maybe they're just not, it wouldn't be a right fit anyway.

[8:04] Because they just don't get us. And you mentioned that about that person that, was it a boss of yours who you work with? And she just didn't like the ADHD part of you. And there's not much you can do about it. You can try and cover all that up. But that is part of who you are.

[8:20] Tamara: Okay. your listener, just go back and write down what he just said. And let that be your mantra for the day. maybe, I don't have to be accepted by everyone. But, Ian, let me tell you, that's not the normal, ADHD response.

[8:38] Ian: No.

[8:38] Tamara: The normal ADHD response is, because again, how are, we talked about this in the first episode, how our brains are wired.

[8:47] We tend to sense when someone doesn't like us and go through, how can I please this person? And we do it as a coping mechanism. And some of us are incredibly good at it and we get rewarded for doing it. please, hold on to what Ian just said. That is a great healthy mindset. I strive to do that every day. I fail because every once in a while, I'm like, oh my goodness, I didn't do that right. And I didn't mention this in the first episode, but ADHD people are very sensitive people. Usually that we can look like insensitive oafs sometimes and we can talk about that in later episodes. But very sensitive and we don't want to hurt people's feelings.

[9:34] We want to be liked. And remember, this starts back in grade school, right? Around 3rd grade, when our teacher frowns at us, because we didn't write our name in the upper right hand corner. We learned to please her, so I'm hoping this makes sense that why people don't want this label. It's a harsh label.

[9:53] Ian: That makes sense. And there's the whole, I think it's called, is it rejection sensitivity? whatever it's called. I think that is something that I've realized that I have myself. Even though totally believe what I just said before, that we want to attract the right people and repel the wrong people in practice.

[10:11] It's not as simple as that. And it's something that we have to work on and it's not easy. And that kind of brings me on to the other kind of the dagger, if we can call it like that, which is. The concept that, everyone has ADHD then, and I'm reminded of, I was having a conversation with somebody, and, I don't know whether this is an ADHD thing, but I tend to be quite open and honest, and sometimes, I'm saying something to a friend, and I'm saying, Ian, shut up!

[10:40] Stop. You're telling too much. This was when I'd just been, diagnosed with ADHD, and a good friend of mine I was talking with, I said, Oh, yeah, I've got I've been diagnosed with ADHD, and he looked at me confused and said, what's that? What's that about? And then I felt, pressurized to try and explain what ADHD was, and I said, Oh, procrastination.

[10:59] I really struggle with procrastination. And he said to me, oh well, . If that's the case, everyone has ADHD then. Or, the other kind of thing that people say is, it's just a fad or an excuse. And, you just go onto Facebook, Instagram or TikTok or whatever, poison pill you have.

[11:14] And it's everywhere and it seems that everyone has it. So what are your thoughts on, that?

[11:22] Tamara: So there's two myths that you said there. first of all, everyone has it. I was at a, this like little fancy thing.

[11:30] We're all dressed up, sipping little cocktails, I was acting like a grown up and someone's Oh, this is Tamara. She wrote the book, Your Brain's Not Broken and it's about ADHD and the person's like ADHD. doesn't everyone have it? And I just, I had a moment where I just looked at..., No, and I just paused and I let it get awkward for a second because it was such a dagger, no. And then the person who kept talking, I'm like, no, that's not right at all. And so this, is an actual diagnosis. And what happens is everyone procrastinates and this is what makes diagnosis difficult. Everyone does procrastinate. Everyone does have exact anxiety over doing tasks. Everyone does these things. But when you group all of these symptoms together and they become a pattern that interfere with your daily life, that's called ADHD. So it's not just that you procrastinate, it's that you also have this group of symptoms that make life a little bit more challenging for you than for others. So those of us with ADHD, lack the "just do it button", right? I'm amazed. I have several daughters, but only one of them does not have ADHD and she happens to work for me.

[13:00] And I watch her like, she's a sorcerer and, I just watch her go boop, on her computer and get things done. And she keeps a list. She checks it off. She's very orderly. she's only 22 years old and she outperforms me. And it's funny because she'll text me saying, Hey, I'm having an off day today.

[13:22] She's finishing up her senior year in college. And she's I'm having a, off day. I'm sorry. I can't get to this until this time. And in my head, I'm like, her off days are still better than my on days because she has so much executive function. So for those people who say, doesn't everyone have a little bit?

[13:42] No, my executive function is compromised. And my limbic center, that's the emotional center, tries to overcompensate for that.

[13:51] Ian: Yeah. That makes sense. And the other myth, is it's just a fad or an excuse, as well.

[13:57] Tamara: So more people are getting diagnosed with ADHD. That is true. In my family, on one side, actually, immigrated to the US from England and on that side of the family, I can trace my ADHD back through experiences they've had. So going back to my grandfather. who was born in 1912, I can tell he had ADHD.

[14:23] Here's how I can tell, they settled in a spot of Michigan called the upper peninsula. And he was kicked out of school, told he wasn't really book smart. At 6th grade. 1, he was left handed, and that seemed to be a big problem for teachers back then. And he dropped out of school to work in the copper mines. He was incredibly intelligent. And so he ended up moving to the lower peninsula in Michigan. And he taught himself how to be an engineer. Now remember this is back in the days you can just teach yourself stuff and call yourself an engineer. He ended up being an engineer. And that's an ADHD kind of pattern.

[15:04] Like we're not fitting with a structure, right? He also was missing fingers. And ADHD people in that generation, would lose fingers very easily because OSHA, is our governing, body that says, hey, you can't endanger workers' lives. ADHD people can be careless with like table saws and things like that.

[15:26] He was so invested in learning and deep learning. I still remember him just pouring over books. And he probably would have been a medical doctor if school had been the right fit for him. The other thing is, he was a really good man, but he struggled with something that a lot of ADHD people struggle with. He struggled with alcoholism. And a lot of ADHD people will drink alcohol in the evening to slow their brain down because it goes too fast. Do you see how I can look back at my grandfather and go, Oh, yeah! Now here's the stats on this. If your grandfather or dad has ADHD, you're 90 percent likely to have a child with ADHD.

[16:08] So then my dad comes into the picture, right? And so you can see this carried on through my family. It was always there, except now we have a complex world. We don't allow kids to drop out at sixth grade and go work in copper mines. Now you've got to stay in school and we've made school way more difficult than it's ever been. And so we're pushing cognition at a younger age. In ADHD brains, by the way, we've run 3 years behind developmentally, not in intelligence, but in emotional regulation and learning organization and all that. So it's always been around. It's just, we live in a time where, now it's becoming problematic for us because there's hunter gatherers and then civilized humans. I'm sorry, that's an overstatement, but you get the idea.

[16:56] Ian: No. That, that makes sense. And it's interesting because I think, particularly if you're intelligent. Academically, you want to do the stuff. You, might want to go to university. Part of that brain wants to do that stuff, but it can then sometimes lead to it being really difficult.

[17:09] And I think the reason I know a lot of people with ADHD and it can feel to me even that, everyone has ADHD. that's an exaggeration that often we're attracted to careers that are more ADHD friendly. I'm in the entrepreneurial space. I have my own business. I have the flexibility.

[17:31] I have the freedom to be creative in what I do. And yes, there are some downsides to all of that, but, I think that's why there's probably quite a lot of ADHD people in that space, but it's not the case for, all career types out there. I wouldn't have thought.

[17:46]

[17:48] Tamara: Well, you know, that's interesting because, and I'm glad you're doing this podcast because I work with very smart people. I work with surgeons who have ADHD. And sometimes people respond oh, I wouldn't want them operating on me. I'm like, are you kidding? I'm like, okay. This guy was so smart that he was able to go through K 12 program, he was able to go to college, able to go to med school, and then surgical rotations without being diagnosed.

[18:20] He's that smart. He figured it out. So he knows his stuff. And the reason, we'll get to this as a strike later, but I would trust an ADHD doctor. Because when they love something and are focused, they can think out of the box. I work with lawyers, doctors, a lot of ER physicians are, ADHD. A lot of lawyers are.

[18:45] I work with incredibly smart people. And a few sad accountants. That's, I think that's the only, and it may be if I'm wrong, I have a viewer talk to you. but that's the only one that is not an ADHD friendly position, at the lower levels. They usually have to move up to be a forensic accountant to make that work.

[19:05] Ian: I can imagine that working in a situation where you're like, I dunno, brain surgeon or something like that, where hyper focusing, you're, focusing because It's something that's so incredibly important. I can imagine that would actually be really good for somebody with ADHD

[19:18] Tamara: I literally coached a brain surgeon and she's brilliant. Yeah, she's brilliant. She had two problems that lead her to my coaching one, she had problems when people weren't following her. She's a very fast thinker and she'd be like, I don't know why you're not following me. she just inappropriate social response and she had short term memory issues where she would forget nothing to do with a patient, but it's like a charting glitch that she had. Otherwise, she knew her stuff. So no one was complaining about her performance as a surgeon. People were complaining about the dumb things. And so I want to be clear, people with ADHD, we usually don't have problems with the interesting things.

[20:01] We have problems with the dumb things. The seemingly simple things in life.

[20:06] Ian: Yeah, I don't talk to my daughter the other day She's like she's always interested in the really difficult stuff or she's really good at the really difficult stuff and then anything that's easy Like at school, like she, she doesn't do so well, maybe at the easy stuff, but she does really well at the difficult stuff.

[20:21] I think that's probably why. So we're almost out of time again, Tamara. I can't believe this. So like just very briefly on the next stigma. And then I do want to leave with a few little points, if you can sprinkle some hope over all of this, because we're obviously talking about a lot of the negatives here, but we're shining a light on these things, which I think is really important.

[20:40] So final thing I want to focus on are the stereotypes, because when we hear ADHD, a lot of people, and I have to say I was exactly like this, you think naughty school boy, hyperactivity. The fact that hyperactivity is in ADHD doesn't help. And when I was diagnosed with a combined type, I thought, yeah, I can, understand the inattentive.

[21:02] I was hyperactive as a boy, but now I'm, I can keep still really easily. actually had no idea what was happening in my brain. And then I started to think about it. No wonder I need to have an afternoon nap every day. And so that really helps. But there's that there's forgetting things people think, unreliable.

[21:25] Why would you hire? We've talked about why would you hire someone with ADHD, but there's those kind of things. How would you address that?

[21:32] Tamara: Okay. So I'm gonna be really honest about this. there are times when I'm working with people who don't have a ADHD neuro-normative or neurotypical people, and all of a sudden I get super self-aware going, okay, just be cool, be real cool, Tam. What would you say if you didn't have a ADHD? And because I, try to pretend I don't have ADHD and I'm telling you that and being honest because there's still a part of me that looks at ADHD people going; come on get your act together, won't you? You're embarrassing me? And I'm embarrassed that I'm saying this to you But it's because and I think this is part of your group that you're talking to why they don't want the label of ADHD It's I don't want to be seen as dumb or careless And so I'm trying to mask and do my best to pretend I'm okay. And so there's a stigma about letting people know who you are. So I've developed the practice. I work with two people to plan, the international conference on ADHD. And they're really wonderful people. They're in the ADHD business. So I'm not faking them out by not having ADHD. They're kind people.

[22:54] Neither of them have ADHD. And I will, take a chance with them and say, okay, I'm sorry. I'm just making sure that we're sequencing in this right order. ADHD people have difficulty sequencing activities. Okay, order of operations, we'll get them wrong all the time. And so I'll say, so can we just talk through the sequencing again?

[23:17] Now, brains can do it easily. And yet it's safe enough space, so I'm, only learning to develop this and it's a vulnerability because ADHD feels like we're vulnerable except when we're in emergencies and our limbic system needs to kick in. We're like, all right, hold my beer, I'll be right back.

[23:41] And we go in and we can just solve problems. And I've, been able to do that with this team, but a lot of the work on this team is very executive function stuff. So I've learned to take risk. And the reason I'm telling you that I'm just learning is this is really hard to do. And so I'm not telling everyone to, Hey, drop your mask, just fly the ADHD flag. It feels awkward and it feels vulnerable. So my advice for this would be with safe people, when you know you have ADHD, point to a symptom that you're experiencing in the moment and say, can you help me with that for a moment? I know we just talked about this. I, was writing down something else, could you help me a moment and help me fill in that blank? And so we're doing this in a calm way. We're aware, we're self aware, and we're taking the risk. Now, remember, a lot of us have been burned, unmasking is a difficult part for us.

[24:43] Ian: That makes sense. And having people that you can be honest and vulnerable with is important. That's again, one of the reasons why this channel exists. and I, also would say like some of these stereotypes that they're just not necessarily true, particularly for smart ADHDers is because I recently, helped produce an online event over two days.

[25:04] We had 20 odd speakers from all around the world. It was all run on Zoom. And I was basically there to organize it all. Now you'd think as an ADHD person, I would be really bad at organizing it and not thinking about all of those things, but I hyper focused into it. And because it's my area, because I love doing that kind of thing.

[25:23] I was actually like the perfect person to, to hire for that. Now, if, there was something, I can't think of an example. If you were to hire me to do your bookkeeping or something, no.

[25:34] Tamara: Right.

[25:35] Ian: So I think that's, important. Often we find ways to become more organized maybe.

[25:40] And I, can be hyper organized if I want to be. But you look underneath my desk in here, which thankfully you can't see, there's a few little bits of mess, I will say. So yeah.

[25:52] Tamara: Neatly tucked. So, this is, I'd love that you bring this up, because a lot of ADHD people are on time, okay? in fact, Ian, you and I differ in this. I might run five minutes late, okay? I've pushed that down to five minutes. Okay. But sometimes I can't always, exactly on the dot, right? And I live in a culture where you're supposed to get there five minutes early.

[26:18] That means on time, which doesn't make sense to me. But anyway, you are always early, aren't you? Okay. Now here, guys, here, listen to why he's early. So a neuro normative person, a person without ADHD, would just get there on time and just say, I got there on time because I just, did it. Ian, why do you arrive on time?

[26:40] Ian: I, because I, don't want to be late. I'm anxious that I'm going to be late. So I always overcompensate.

[26:47] Tamara: So this is an ADHD thing. Because his prefrontal cortex just doesn't go, hey, it's time to leave. Let's get in the car and go. No, by the way, your Jeeves is much better from the last episode. So you just superimpose the Jeeves on there. But, your brain doesn't do that. So you have that angry neighbor inside your brain shaking his shoes saying, Ian, for crying out loud, if you don't get in the car right now, you're And you're like, okay, it's 20 minutes early, but I guess I will.

[27:15] And so Ian is using this emotional stimulus to do the right thing. So a lot of us can do the right thing. And then sometimes we have to ask, how are we doing the right thing? So not all of us are late. Some of my clients are extremely organized. Some aren't. The ones who are extremely organized, do you know why they're extremely organized? Clutter makes them uneasy, so they overcompensate.

[27:41] Ian: that's fascinating stuff. just before we finish, can you sprinkle a little bit of hope on all of this? We've talked about a lot of negative things, misconceptions, myths, and I'm sure we've shone some light on all of that. But, for listeners who have heard all of this, what are maybe the next steps and, how can we look at this moving forward?

[28:00] Tamara: Yeah. So self awareness is incredibly difficult to build when you have ADHD and all these stigmas add layers and layers that we start to hide behind. We start to hide behind like Oh, I don't have this label or I, I don't want to be associated with this group. So really start by talking with yourself and figuring out you're not broken. You have a neurological difference. And that's okay, except you live in a modern world. And if you lived in the 1700s, this wouldn't be a big deal,

[28:35] But it's a big deal today, because everything that we're doing in life has a lot of executive function to it. So if you're feeling out of step, let's make that about the environment, and helping you accommodate to the environment.

[28:49] Ian: thank you for that. And we'll have some future episodes talking about some smart strategies to help with this, but know that you're not alone. If you've resonated with anything that you've heard in this episode, we're here for you. And obviously, if you're concerned, then do see a healthcare professional, I certainly I'm not an expert on ADHD.

[29:08] That's important, but Tamara, thank you so much. It's been great again to have you back on the show. And of course you have an amazing book. Your brain's not broken, which gives really smart strategies in there. And you've got another book coming out soon, which is.

[29:21] Tamara: You, me, and our ADHD family,

[29:24] Ian: So it's all about the family. And if you want to hear a little bit more about that, then Tamara talked about that, the previous episode. Thank you, Tamara. It's been great. We are out of time, but we'll see you on the next episode.

[29:35] Tamara: Thanks for having me.