ADHD & Entrepreneurship: Creativity vs. Chaos

[0:41] Ian: Hello and welcome back to the smart ADHD podcast. Today we're exploring the world of ADHD and entrepreneurship, exploring the interplay between creativity And chaos, and I'm excited to welcome back Cathy Rashidian a certified executive coach with over 20 years of leadership experience and a personal journey with ADHD.

[1:05] She specializes in ADHD in the workplace, blending traditional and ADHD specific strategies to help clients and organizations, particularly entrepreneurs, unlock their potential and foster growth. Today, we're looking at the unique challenges and opportunities that ADHD presents for entrepreneurs, especially when navigating the creative process.

[1:27] So let's get on with it right now.

[1:29] Hello, I'm Ian Anderson Gray, and this is the smart ADHD podcast.

[1:44] Now if you're a smart, creative entrepreneur or business owner navigating your life with ADHD, This is the podcast for you. Now, I'm no ADHD expert, but I'm eager to share my story on what I've learned by talking with experts, as well as digging into the personal ADHD stories of successful creatives and entrepreneurs.

[2:07] I was diagnosed at age 46, and it answered so many questions in my life. But of course, that was in many ways, only the start of my journey. So let's learn together. Smart stories, smart strategies, smart ADHD.

[2:34] Welcome back, Cathy. Great to have you back on the podcast. How are you doing?

[2:39] Cathy: Oh, great. Thank you for having me back. Let's get to it. I'm excited.

[2:45] Ian: Yeah, we need to get straight into it. Cause I felt at the end of last episode, there was so many more questions I wanted to ask you. But now we're going to be focusing kind of a a similar subject, but we're going to be focusing on harnessing our creativity. Which is one of the great things maybe, or positive things about having ADHD, the divergent thinking, creativity, while managing the chaos, I love order.

[3:06] I'm looking around my office. It was like last week, it was looking beautiful, tidy. It made me feel great, but now it's looking a bit chaotic. And my life is a bit chaotic. A bit. What is the link? Is is there a link between creativity and chaos? If we are creative, are we going to be chaotic?

[3:24] Cathy: Yes. It's gonna be like, is that a trick question? I think so. In my humble little Cathy opinion, I think so. I think the chaos also, we like it, we live off of it, we feed off of it look at all this stuff I'm doing, wow, look at me go. So I think part of it could be that. We're also ideation machines that every few minutes we're like, or hours, we have 20 new ideas that keep popping up.

[3:51] And also when it's like that, it's not like we sit there and go, okay, you go over here, you go over there, you go, we don't create homes for them. We're just like, woof, there it is. It's all here and the hello chaos. And then let's, let's not forget that we are impaired in our executive functioning around.

[4:09] Prioritization and task management so that it makes sense that it becomes chaos because it doesn't come to us naturally to put it in order. We actually need to take time, bring in the resources to Marie Kondo the chaos, if you will, a little bit and organize it.

[4:27] Ian: yeah, Oh, that's that's good. So I think the reason I asked the question is in one sense, it is it's a really obvious answer. Yeah. Yeah, of course. But I do find, so two things don't want to have too much rigidity in my life, in my calendar and in my everyday because That to me seems boring.

[4:47] I want that flexibility, that freedom. This is why I run my own business. I've got all of these different things that I can do. I love that flexibility, but equally that stresses me out. And if I look at my calendar and if I look at my office, like I spend a huge amount of time. Enhancing and hacking my productivity.

[5:03] And you should see I've set up all these tools. Like I use notion. I've put like a database of where everything else is in my life. And I probably hyper focused a few times with that, but the fact of the matter is that makes me feel more at peace if there is some order, but I don't want order all the time.

[5:23] Does that kind of make sense? What I'm saying?

[5:24] Cathy: Hundred percent. And literally I was talking to a client yesterday about that. And it's What did she call it? Her planner hospice, where planners go to die. I was like, oh my God. And I was like, yeah, I have one on my shelf over there. I never called it that. But yeah, there's a stack of planners that this is going to be the system.

[5:43] This is going to be the thing. And as you're saying that, Ian, what comes up for me is I'm not your typical coach. So I'm actually it's, you go to coaching to learn how to do routine and structure. Some coaches will do that. I am the one that's anti routine and structure. I even did an episode on that on my podcast.

[5:59] I'm anti routine and structure, but for a reason. I think it's more about manage your state, not your to do list.

[6:07] Ian: Oh,

[6:07] Cathy: when you manage your emotions, and emotional dysregulation is at the core of ADHD, I believe. If we manage that, if we're able to tame that beast of Whoa, what's going on right now? I gotta get all of this and look, I'm not doing anything.

[6:23] Then we go down. The rumination path, then it doesn't matter what system you have in place. It doesn't matter what structure you have in place, because in that moment of overwhelm, it goes F it. I don't want to touch anything. And also, I don't want to be creative anymore. I just want to shut down. And we do shut off the access to the creative part of our brain. So manage your state. Not your to do list is

[6:44] Ian: that's really interesting. Yeah. No, I, so I've been thinking a lot about this. Like I'll give you an example. So i've come to realize that I pretty much Everything that I do all the tasks that I do in my life, particularly with my business I do it from an emotional point of view. Like how do I feel about this?

[7:01] It's not and if I don't feel like doing it, I push it procrastinate Until it's like it needs to be done tomorrow. And then I use anxiety as a Bad tool to then get me to do the stuff, which is not good But that's how I feel it but equally like when i've done some of my best work in my business Like some of the blog posts i've written some of the ideas that i've had It's when i've just thought of this creative idea and i've dropped everything.

[7:25] I feel so excited about it I go down that rabbit hole and that's been when i've followed my curiosity. That's when i've done my best work But that strategy doesn't Always were like this stuff that I know I need to be doing but I've going into this negative cycle this loop or Maybe it's just boring and I just don't want to do it today I there's lots of things I should be doing but I just went down a problem solving Rabbit hole and I was having a lot of fun solving this problem, which is kind of useful I can you know, I can say okay.

[7:55] Yeah, this is you know, useful I can tell myself that. But so I've, in all of what I've been saying that I've been talking a lot about emotions, a lot about curiosity, but life isn't like that, the stuff that I need to do. So how, what would you say about that? How do I live my life and do what I need to do while being creative, going down those rabbit holes, but also actually doing stuff?

[8:20] Cathy: Oh my god. Can I coach you for a second? I was like, I have questions to ask

[8:25] The reason I say that because it's exactly like what you're saying is all the clients that I meet on a daily basis Is that is what I heard you say is you have a creative process Right? And it serves, but then it doesn't. And then what I'd like to ask you to contemplate on, and for our listeners too, is what's the medium?

[8:45] What's the happy medium of this? So we talk about ADHD strengths, if you will, or your individual self, your strengths as a, as self. I'm holding up this character strengths by via character strengths. com and I'm not affiliated that I would get paid for saying this, but what I like is they outline your strengths.

[9:05] So if your strengths are in. Creativity, leadership, I'm reading some of this, love of learning, it's finding your happy medium of it. So for me, if I lean into love of learning too much, and they call it the golden mean, if I lean into it too much, I will never get anything done. I'll be studying all day, every day and not even executing. So what's my happy medium? Okay, I took 20 courses on this. Let's go into action. So I'm always doing this check in of, okay, I did an impulsive creative thing. Now, let's go back to the project plan. What are some of the things I need to do before they, they fall off the radar? So it's a bit of a, we call it metacognition or self awareness where you're constantly checking in.

[9:50] So I don't want you to like, punish yourself for being creative and you have this beautiful creative process, but what's the in between? And ADHD tendency is we go all or nothing. We go black or white

[10:02] Ian: Yep.

[10:02] Cathy: So it's how do we find the colors in between that says, sometimes Ian will do writing like this.

[10:09] And sometimes he will take time to do it. Sometimes he'll plan it out. Sometimes he doesn't. So to give ourselves choices versus this, I got to find the tool that works, or I got to find the thing, this system. We are meant to break the rules as folks with ADHD. So anytime my clients come to me and say, I want the system that works, I'm like, there's no such a thing.

[10:31] Because you'll work on the system, few days later, I'm bored with the system. Okay, change it up. It doesn't mean it didn't work, it just, you outlived the system, you outgrew it, it needs another system. Tap into that creativity, God, we need novelty, what, great! I got to create a new system, woohoo! Versus, oh, woe's me, I'm shit, I can't figure this out, why can't I figure it out?

[10:54] And all the self help books that we read on the topic of, balancing chaos and creativity.

[10:59] Ian: Yeah. Okay. So I hear what you're saying is that chaos is going to be there. You can't eradicate the chaos. It's part of the life with ADHD. And, one thing that I've, I think I see in my own life and I hear that is an ADHD trait is self, I don't know whether it's self awareness or being able to understand the way our brains work.

[11:19] We're not always that good at it. We can have a, sometimes a very flawed view of ourselves. This for me has been like. Low self esteem thinking I'm no good Things when clearly I'm good at it. I feed myself those cycles So a lot of what you're talking about there seems to me that you need quite a lot of self awareness And it's difficult stuff to do on your own.

[11:41] Can you do that on your own or really do you need, it sounds like you need to have a coach or somebody to help with this kind of stuff. I think I've come to the point in thinking I don't think I could do that fully on my own, but what's your view on that?

[11:53] Cathy: Yeah, I actually have a tagline that I say, don't do ADHD alone. And it is, the reason I say it, it's not that you need to have a coach or a therapist or a mentor all the time, but there's some unlearning that needs to happen, especially in adults. Because, I'm 48 now, there's certain ways that I've been all my life, certain approaches that I took that became my go to approach.

[12:15] So what we do in, in, in these kind of conversations is to say, great, Ian, you have a system. What part of it do you want to keep? What part of it do you want to modify? So then for the first time Ian goes, Oh, okay. This part I'll take and I'll procrastinate with honors and on this one I'll modify it a little bit so that I'm not Procrastinating and feeling the deficit afterwards.

[12:36] So and techniques like cognitive behavior therapy Dialectical behavior therapy. Those are some of my favorites when it comes to therapy and ADHD that I always tell my clients Go do those two with therapists. They're great. And then with coaching what we do is once you've unlearned Off to the races you go because now you have a new and this is truly rewiring your brain because here's an example I can say from this path you've been going to the lake using this same path so the grass is worn out right there's this same path everybody goes to the lake through the same path and then I come in as your guide and go Ian there's this secret pathway that nobody knows about do you want to go around it and do you want to go to the lake this way.

[13:20] To go through that, nobody's gone through it. So there's bushes, there's shrubs, everything. So we got to make our way through that. God, Cathy, why are you making me do this? It's so difficult. But Ian, we get there at 20 minutes earlier than everybody else. Oh, okay, fine. I'll do it.

[13:35] So then Ian starts to take the difficult path and then over time, as he's doing it over and over again, the shrubs and everything wears down. So then now he's, here he is, created a new path. What happens to the old one that he doesn't take anymore? Overgrows with shrubs and the trees and everything else.

[13:50] So you see, it'll be a little bit difficult, but you are creating new ways and getting rid of the default tendencies.

[13:57] Ian: Great stuff. So I'm aware that some people listening and watching might be listening to all of this and they, their mind is blown. Like my mind is definitely blown with all this stuff. I feel like I'm learning so, so much recently with ADHD. I feel like, I definitely feel like my diagnosis those few years ago was the start of my journey.

[14:16] And I'm having to relearn everything in my life, which is, it probably is right, is the right way of thinking. But there might be some people listening who Love what you're saying, but they are starting to feel a bit overwhelmed. There's so much stuff here. Like, how did we start? Do we need to hire a coach?

[14:33] Do we, is there anything that can we can do on our own? So what would you say to people like that? Yes, hiring a coach is one thing, but of course, then you've got to find a coach, find a good coach. And what are maybe the stages they've listened to this. They love what you're saying.

[14:45] What maybe are some little steps that they can take to get to the next stage.

[14:51] Cathy: so to tame the chaos so you can tap into your creative juices more often, more frequently. My go to is usually take it out of my head and onto pen and paper. And some people call it a brain dump. I like to call it the good old traditional mind mapping. And if you've never done a mind mapping, put yourself in the middle and then here's your tentacles of the different projects you've got going on.

[15:18] The minute I start to visualize what's in here, then I can see, okay, here's picture, big picture. This is what's going on. In this stream, for my podcast, these are the things that are going on. For my marketing, these are the things I need to do. That first step just creates the sense of roadmap and you just, I think it lets my brain at least breathe.

[15:40] I feel like, it's ah, okay, I see it. There's the blueprint and even just sitting with that Ian a little bit and then one week at a time I chip away at it. Okay back to the mind. Where am I at with the mind map? Come back and I like to use two sources that are my source of truth my mind map and my Google Calendar So that I'm constantly Pulling from the mind map.

[16:01] Okay, this week I'm going to do this. Do I get to all of it? Hell no. But what I do is at least I know there's repository versus it's all in my brain. Oh my God, I'm going to forget it. So it has a home. I give home to my creative ideas. The other thing I like to do is create intentional spaces. We went, we became a business owner, so we could be in charge of our own calendar, God forbid.

[16:24] So you are still in charge of your own calendar, but the idea of not to fill it with so much stuff. stop with the doing, be in the being a little bit. So I intentionally like for today, my afternoon is actually blocked off. I call it focus time, but it's really to just simmer with my week. I'm doing nothing.

[16:42] It's just that. And in that nothing, I get bored. There may be creativity that may come of it. I may continue to do nothing. I may read a couple of chapters, but I'm giving myself permission to be in a space of doing nothing, but it's an intentional space. I'm not being lazy. I'm intentionally doing it.

[17:00] Sorry, the third thing I would do is I talk about a hyper focus hangover. On the days where I'm intentionally very much into hyper focus, pumping out a bunch of stuff, I'm on my A game. Usually by, I can go two days of hyper focus if I push myself. The third and fourth day I'm useless to everybody, even to myself.

[17:20] Before that used to be, Oh my God, here I go again. I'm back into my cycle, shame, guilt. Why does this happen to me every time? And now brain science is actually because I peaked my dopamine so high, it needs to come back down. It will feel like depression. You will want to withdraw, but it actually hurts a little bit for me, at least that's my brain saying, I need to come up for air.

[17:44] I need to re, recalibrate if you will. And if you don't believe me, there's a amazing researcher, Anna Lemke, talks about it in Dopamination, her book. And this, what goes up must come down. So now with permission, Ian, I give myself those recovery days. Where I'm like this professional athlete in my brain, and now I'm allowing my brain to just chill a little and recover.

[18:06] Ian: and I found that in my own life that I've realized that the rhythm that I need like having a Friday

[18:11] Off or just like a relaxed day. It's a day when I can do a bit of work, but I, it's a generally a day where I've got that kind of freedom and flexibility to do stuff. And so this is I'd love to ask you a little bit more about, the tools that we can use.

[18:26] I know you said there's not one system, but you mentioned calendar, Google calendar. I'm a massive Google calendar person, but I tend to just Put in blocking the important stuff and what I've started to realize I need to really probably put All the stuff, like maybe all the tasks in there, my free time, like maybe when I'm eating, all of that kind of stuff, but I'm also thinking about like, how do I approach that from an emotional point of view?

[18:50] I've already thought about that on a Friday. I need to have that downtime. But I probably if I thought about it I know there are certain times of the day when i'm gonna be feeling more Like I can do stuff or I have to have some down time How do I approach it from that point of view and also sorry, there's so many things here But the other thing is like calendars are not just To do with time, they're also to do with location as well.

[19:15] And I think you mentioned like taking time away from maybe from your office. I don't think you quite said that, but I think you were talking about there, there's location plays a role in this as well.

[19:25] Cathy: My if things don't show up in my calendar, I end up not doing them. So my calendar is truly like, This, these are the rules of the calendar. It's not really a calendar. It's my compass for the day, for the week. It's how I function. It's my functioning system, if you will. I've learned to build transition times between things.

[19:44] I've learned to know when my best, when my brain is on, for things. For example, this podcast, I could have done it in the morning, in the afternoon, in the whatever, Because it's the kind of work that I love to do. So I don't need to psych myself up for it. I can naturally show up for it. But something like, let's say I need to review students, coaching calls that for, I have to give feedback to these coaches about their style of coaching.

[20:10] That takes energy out of me because I need to make sure, that I'm being nice, I'm not being too rough. All of that. I block those off kind of midday, because midday I'm a little bit more turned on, I'm ready to go, I've had my coffee, my breakfast, so I really get to know myself of when I'm at my best, when I'm really at my lowest.

[20:29] Anything after two o'clock for me. If I'm doing deep work, it wouldn't be after two o'clock. So it has to be before two. So recognize when you're deep work, you want to do that. And it's really a, you know, it's interesting. Dr. Russell Barkley talks about the knowing and doing gap. Most of us with ADHD know what we need to do.

[20:47] It's the doing part. And it starts with what turns me on, what lights me up throughout the day so I can get through my day. Just if you had the perfect day, what would Best time for productivity be for getting things done. And then you start to put a parameter around that. Nobody books me at this time.

[21:05] Nobody books me at this time. I remember you said to me, Cathy, can we meet before? I'm like, sorry, I don't have any slots available. Genuinely, I didn't have any slots available because I've pre planned it. However, if crisis happened, if something happens, I can move things around, but also priorities. What's the purpose of this?

[21:24] What's the purpose of that? Where am I this year? Aligning with your values, aligning with your goals. I'm constantly checking in every quarter. Where am I at with my business this quarter? What have I let go of that I may need to bring back? What is it that I don't need anymore that I've outgrown an idea?

[21:41] We also have a hard time letting go of projects, by the way, because we feel like, you know, that, that baby is being neglected. What if it didn't need to be executed at all? And it was just the idea of it was enough to stimulate you. I went a little bit all over the place, but does that

[21:56] Ian: Yeah. Yeah.

[21:57] I get, I've been thinking about this recently that with these podcast episodes. I'm gonna, I myself, I'm going to have to listen over them two or three times just to really, because there's so much good stuff in that. And so if you're listening and you'd love that, go back and listen again, because it, there's just so much stuff to get through.

[22:16] And, I love the fact that you are checking in with yourself and looking at your business goals and stuff. So there's so many things that you do, but, and I've thought about those things. For example, I've got what I call my nice words list. And those are all the things that people have said, all the kind of like positive things that people have said about my business.

[22:34] Cause it reminds me sometimes I think I'm no good. And, I think I'm rubbish at business. I look at that and think, no, do you know what? I'm actually really good at what I do. So it's reminds me of that. So I have that. I also have my business goals and I have a plan. But what I struggle with is I never do those things.

[22:52] That's the idea. I know that I should be doing those things. So how do you make sure that you do look at your, say, your mission statement or your business goals and all of that kind of stuff. How do you actually do that? Because, we're talking about creativity and chaos, but that's what you're doing there is actually quite, that's something that you definitely need to do and you do on a regular basis, it sounds.

[23:11] Cathy: Yes, and for the first three years of my business, I had it right in front of me, right here at my desk. And it was like this yellow, big yellow paper. And it had all of the stuff that the mission, the vision, the strengths, what do I stand for? So every time something new came in, I'm like, wait, does it align?

[23:29] Does it align with my value? So I would check in. So it became a kind of part of. My being what I like to say is so little Buddha here is my breathing Buddha. If I turn it on it like guides me to breathe. I know it's weird that I need a Buddha, but it does. But what happens with this little guy though, if I put him there, he's been there too long.

[23:49] I don't see him anymore. He becomes part of the desk. So the minute he becomes part of the desk and I don't see, and I do this with my vitamins. I do this with pretty much everything, with my fridge, I change things around. And my husband's always God, it's changed around. Where is, where's the lettuce now?

[24:05] It's Oh, it's up there now, I do that so that it doesn't become furniture for me and it doesn't become wallpaper that is constantly moving that I'm reminded, or I will rewrite it again. Okay. I will sit with myself, a coffee, meditation, I've got my aromatherapy. I'll rehearse the whole thing again.

[24:22] Remember we talked about rehearsing the stories. These are the kind of stories you want to keep rehearsing over and over. So even if you have to write it again in some fancy paper, one of my colleagues calls it the obnoxious prompt. Big, with felt pen, colors, whatever, that you can see. It's your office, you can decorate it however you want.

[24:41] That is just in front of you for a while, to be reminded of that. So you can get into it. My other trick is also the minute I start to feel overwhelmed. The minute depression, anxiety kicks in, Oh, I haven't been looking at my stuff. Let me go back and revisit. And that revisiting, okay, here we go.

[24:58] Everything's okay. We're good. We're chill. Just so that the brain remembers or is reminded of we had a roadmap. Remember, cause we don't have to visit it every day. And I think when you do deep planning like that, it like stays with you for a while. Like how often do you go back to your like, what did I say I was going to do?

[25:15] You're doing it right back in corporate days. We would spend three days in planning. Nobody would ever go back to those PowerPoints. We'd just be doing, but it's in times where crisis like this happens and overwhelmed, come back and revisit, rewrite it again.

[25:28] Ian: Yeah, so you've mentioned overwhelm and lots of other words there, which to me stifle creativity.

[25:36] And so there may be people watching or listening who they know deep down they are creative. Maybe they were creative a few years ago, even decades ago, but from years and years of maybe being told they just need to focus on.

[25:50] getting stuff done. Maybe they're in a line of work where they're not really being encouraged to embrace their creativity. Maybe they're suppressing it somehow. They're overthinking it. There's perfectionism going on. How do we unshackle ourselves if we're in those situations and actually embrace our creativity?

[26:11] And perhaps, and this is going to be difficult for some people. Embrace that chaos as well Hmm

[26:20] Cathy: with your values Sounds so coachy, but let me tell you how it works. It's actually very practical tool I'll be quick on this because I know we may be out of time But here's this little story client came to me says I need to write my second book I'm not writing my second book.

[26:38] I'm stuck. I'm stuck and this ADHD thing and all of that and creativity and all of that I've just I don't have it in me. So one of the exercises we did was around living in our values Our values are our North Star. So if your values are Creativity, love of learning, growth community, whatever your values may be.

[27:00] I, I invite you to sit down and write down your top five values. Don't overthink the words, whatever they are, just the things that light you up. Think of memories of where you were like, Oh my God, that was so much fun. Usually you would have been within your values. If you're in a state of flow, if you've ever experienced that, you would have been within your values.

[27:18] Write them down, top five, and then look back two weeks in your day, in your life. In the last two weeks, let's say creativity was one of them. What would you score yourself? How creative were you? What actions did you take towards this value? This particular person said two. I said, okay, is this one two out of five?

[27:37] Let's say five is you're being an action. Two is you're not so much. So then we said, okay, if creativity is one, what would be the thing that you want to do to tap into this value? Oh, I don't know. We went down a list. The list was pretty Nuts, it was like I'm gonna go dancing. I'm gonna bungee jump like get creative with like Silly ideas it doesn't have to be perfect All we're trying to do is tap into the curious part of our brain when we're curious we lessen judgment So we came up with a whole bunch of ideas then I'm like, okay, which ones you want to do the lowest effort possible She goes, you know what?

[28:13] I'm gonna go to Walmart. I'm gonna pick up paint and I'm gonna do finger painting I kid you not Ian. She went to from finger painting to To fluid art, to selling her art online, never wrote her second book, was being an artist and now she lives in Mexico. True story. You know what I mean? So sometimes we get so attached to that thing, but what if it's not the thing, but it's your essence of who you are.

[28:36] And hers was creativity just with paint and permission to just be herself.

[28:42] Ian: Yes that permission. I think that's the big thing. Isn't it? Sometimes we so often I think We don't give ourselves a permission. We're shackling ourselves with whatever it is. It's probably stuff from our childhood, other stuff going on. And this is why, as you say, we can't just, it's not a good idea just to manage it on our own.

[29:00] We are, I think we are people that need other people in our lives. You've been so helpful. Thank you so much, Cathy. I'm going to have to probably sit down. with a cup of tea and think about everything that you've just said and have a chat with chat. gbt. No, I'm joking. Maybe I will but I hope it's been fascinating for you listening.

[29:19] So thank you so much for plugging us into your ears or for watching on the YouTubes. And if you've got any questions for myself, you smartadhd. me. And if you've got any questions for Cathy, where's the best place for people to go.

[29:30] Cathy: definitely come and find me on readysettruths. com. You'll find all the resources, links to my podcast and all the things that I do to support our community.

[29:40] Ian: Awesome. It's been so good to have you on the show. I'm very excited to actually meet you in person at the ADHD conference in November, I think it is.

[29:48] So that's going to be fun. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for plugging us into your ears and watching on the YouTubes. But until next time, I encourage you to be smart with your ADHD.

[29:59] Toodaloo.

[29:59] ​