[1:03] Let's get on with it right now.
[1:05] Hello, Jon, welcome to smart ADHD. How are you doing?
[1:08] Jon: I'm doing wonderfully. Thanks, Ian. Thanks for having me.
[1:11] Ian: Oh, it's great to have you we we've only just recently met. And we had an amazing conversation. My head was blown last time we spoke. In fact, I went you know, I was I went downstairs for lunch and spoke and saw my wife and she kind of Saw that and my head had exploded. Ha ha ha ha! After all of what we were talking about.
[1:34] It was so interesting. And so I wanted to get you onto the show to talk about Neurology, Neuroscience, Neurochemistry, whatever you want to call it. And I'm going to ask you about that in a bit. Um, because I, so I suppose my first question to you is, why is it important for us to have an understanding of the neurology, what's happening in our brain, from that perspective, you know, why does that, how does that help us as people who have ADHD?
[1:59] Jon: Thanks Ian. That's a great place to start. So I think the thing is ADHD has been shrouded in a lot of mystery for a long time and still largely is because we've always had to describe it from what we see as a behavior and tried to interpret that. Now that's very useful for diagnostics because it helps us categorize what we see as consistent behaviors.
[2:19] However, if we want to have an effect on changing it, we need to understand the mechanism behind. the condition. And if we can understand the mechanism, then we can perhaps start seeing how we could influence those mechanisms to get better, better outcomes for ourselves.
[2:35] Ian: Yeah, now that that's really interesting What we're gonna try and do in this episode or what you're going to try and help us with I think is to kind of, there's all these words that we've heard like dopamine and, uh, all these other things that we're going to talk about. Um, and there's so much kind of, there's a lot of misconceptions, mysteries about all of these things.
[2:55] Now, one thing that when we were chatting last time, I was using the word neuroscience and you were using the word neurochemistry. And I thought, Oh, that's interesting. Like, so, And then I started getting me thinking, well maybe that's because of, because of these chemicals in our brains, you know, we mentioned dopamine and stuff like that.
[3:11] So what, why do you refer more to neurochemistry rather than neuroscience when discussing ADHD?
[3:17] Jon: Well, I mean, I think neuroscience is a factor in your, sorry, neurochemistry is a factor in neuroscience. I suppose my bias bias in terms of discussing it is twofold. One, I come from a pharmaceuticals background originally. Um, and so a lot of that was about neurochemistry is particularly what we're focused on.
[3:34] But I think the other part is too, that with ADHD, um, primarily we're looking at neurochemistry. We're not seeing a particular difference in, at this stage anyway, in structural or functional, um, features of the brain. What we're seeing is an inconsistency and availability of a particular neurochemistry. And that neurochemistry is very responsive to a whole pile of, um, conditions that happen both within the body and outside the body.
[4:02] Ian: Yeah. That's fascinating. Cause I I've, I've kind of thought about ADHD is there's maybe there's something structurally different about my brain, but actually what's really interesting is going into the chemistry. What inside my brain and so yeah, that that's that's a really helpful distinction So from a neurological point of view, can you break down what adhd?
[4:23] Looks like what's actually happening in our brains
[4:26] Jon: Right. Now, well, in terms of, now I misspoke slightly, there probably is a minor structural difference, but that, which is directly related to the neurochemistry. However, I don't think of it as a major structural difference because we know that our brains can perform in the same way as anyone else's brain, which is defined by the fact that it's not that, you know, I always like to say to people, we're not broken.
[4:48] We're just inconsistent. Um, so, you know, so it's not that we can't focus. It's not that we can't direct emotion. It's not that we can't organize working memory. It's, it's just that it doesn't happen reliably. So currently what the research suggests is that in terms of neuroscience, ADHD is highly, um, hereditary.
[5:09] It's right up there with height as the most inheritable thing you can have. Um, the, um, the second part of it is that what we think is happening is that we're getting inconsistent availability of dopamine, which is largely due to, um, the fact that we're effectively recycling dopamine too efficiently. Now, the reason we think we are, we come to that little, well, if there is a neurological difference, is that we think we have more receptor, uh, reuptake receptors than other people do.
[5:38] So if you think about a dopamine system, there's receptors where we release dopamine and they go out and they impact with the other receptors to pass on signals. Um, but then we also have a, this process of what we call reuptake pumps. And these reuptake receptors, their job is to reabsorb dopamine. And we think that people with ADHD have too many of them.
[5:59] And one of the reasons that we came to that conclusion was that the medications that we found effective with ADHD, particularly the stimulants, um, effectively block some of those reuptake receptors. So with the stimulant, you're not replacing dopamine. What you're doing is you're stopping your dopamine being reabsorbed.
[6:16] So what does that mean? That means that, that dopamine inconsistency, so if we think about dopamine as a bit of a universal communicator, That it's passing signals between receptors and keeping in mind, it's not one receptor to one receptor, it's, it's, it's one to hundreds or even thousands. And so when it does that, what we're doing is we're interrupting the the signal in our brain.
[6:39] Now the area of the brain that we think is primarily affected is sort of the back part of the prefrontal cortex, which is what we're associating theoretically with effectively something we call executive function, which is, is about how we self regulate our thinking. So therefore, that's where we get problems with directing our attention, with directing emotion, with managing working memory or capacity of working memory.
[7:04] And then in turn, other particular functions like organization, time awareness, and all that sort of thing.
[7:12] Ian: okay. I think that was that was That's so interesting. I I hadn't thought about the fact that we have too many receptors. This is the kind of think current thinking Uh, i've always thought well, maybe we just don't have enough dopamine, but I suppose in a way that is true That is the case, so like, there isn't enough dopamine for the number of receptors that we have.
[7:31] But what does what is the role of dopamine? I mean, I hear a lot about it, it being talked about in when it comes to motivation, and giving us that feedback when we've done something, we're involved with something that's exciting or things like that. But what what is it? What is its role in our brains?
[7:54] Jon: Right. Well, I mean, and I'll speak just to my knowledge and experience. And, you know, the thing is, you know, that it's popularized as the woohoo neurochemistry or, or the yeehaw. Um, and, and, but basically, I mean, I ran into a neural researcher, um, years back here at the Queensland Brain Institute. And he was very excited and he said, we've just found this amazing thing that dopamine is in, in most parts of the body.
[8:18] In fact, it's everywhere where there is nervous tissue in the body and, um, that it's more, more, more appropriate to think of it as a universal communicator, that it's passing signals. That's its job. And so, you know, when we think about how, how the brain is set up, that we have effectively brain cells that come down to receptors, but they don't actually all connect to each other.
[8:40] Because if you think about it. And again, theoretically, that would not be a good model for a brain because it'd be very limiting. We'd be like hardwired. But instead, we've got this neat little system that instead of, instead of being permanently wired to each other, we pass on the electrical signal between, um, brain cells by spitting bits of neurochemical, across that passes on the information, uh, will re triggers the electrical stimulation in the other brain cell.
[9:09] Which means we can have one cell talking to hundreds of others and, and mediating that in a really, you know, very eloquent way, which is why our brain can do the amazing things it does. So, yes, dopamine is very much affected in terms of, in terms of stimulation. It's certainly very much present in terms of the reward centers of the brain.
[9:33] Um, in fact, you know, that's one of the features when we look at stimulant treatment, even though stimulant treatment used appropriately is, is very much, um, therapeutic. Um, we know that it still affects increasing dopamine availability throughout the brain. So it does have the potential to have a sensation, uh, sensory effect in terms of that's where you have to be careful about potential for misuse.
[9:58] So dopamine is a really interesting neurochemistry. And, you know, there are other very interesting neurochemistries as well, neurochemicals as well. However, dopamine has been sort of fairly unique in that it's, it's very select. We talk about it very selectively with ADHD. Um, but it gives us a very, very neat target, if you like, for change.
[10:19] For example, everybody's dopamine fluctuates. Everybody. And in fact, we've all seen examples. If you want to see someone who looks like, who's got poor dopamine availability, pick someone who's been up all night. You know, somebody with a newborn. They're, they're running on low fuel. Um, if we look at, um, somebody who is intoxicated.
[10:39] Um, if we look at somebody who is hungry, the, the whole hangry meme that we seem to have now that never used to exist, um, under a lot of stress, what we're going to see is a lot of poor self, cognitive poor self regulation. So we see people being more emotional, we see people having trouble with their attention, we see people struggling with working memory to hold concepts in mind and manipulate them.
[11:02] Do we see them struggle with organization and, and perception of time? Now, the difference being that for people without ADHD, these transient events, they're usually quite reliable that they know exactly why they're happening. Like, I stayed up all night, that's why this is happening today. And the other thing that they do, which I think in coaching is of particular interest with ADHD, is that they have cognitive systems to accommodate when their dopamine availability isn't as good.
[11:34] Ian: Hmm. Interesting. So would it be fair to say that with ADHD brains that there is a, we have lower amounts of dopamine, but that it does again, it fluctuates. Sometimes if we're just in a hyper focused state, then our dopamine goes up or we're excited about something, our dopamine level goes up, but that it fluctuates.
[11:58] Um, that's the kind of first part of the question. But the second part of the question is like, well, what happens when we are. We have very low dopamine. I mean, I guess I know what that's like having adhd. I know I know how that feels But what's actually happening in the
[12:11] brain? Well, well, I think, I think we've got to be careful of this association with dopamine as being, we've got dopamine, we're excited, or we're charged up. If we think about it from a self regulatory approach. So it's more about how we regulate all those things. So if we're too excited, that's not good. Bad things happen when we're too excited, right?
[12:33] Jon: But also good things can happen when we're appropriately excited. Um, you know, um, just like it is great to put our attention on things, but it's also being great to be able to switch our attention. So we're talking about hyper focus versus being on the shift attention. So in terms of dopamine availability, effectively, there's probably this, uh, relative line in the sand that, that anyone can dip in and, and, and, in a crossover in which they means they're going to have less effective communication, which means less effective self regulation.
[13:04] So that may look like someone being very emotional. It may look like, um, somebody, um, somebody being very distracted and vague. It may look like, um, somebody, um, you know, having trouble holding procedure in mind and that sort of thing. Um, the difference I think with ADHD and the way I like to think about it is because that we seem to have greater recycling recycling of dopamine, um, or, uh, we, we seem to have, we're closer to that line all the time.
[13:35] And then you compound that by the fact that we have behavioral habits because of our poor self regulation that further impact it. So poor sleep. Poor diet, poor exercise, um, poor stress management. All of those things will actually decrease dopamine availability too, so it's sort of like a compounding problem.
[13:55] Whereas someone without ADHD will, will have better availability of dopamine, but it's more consistent. So they, they're able to fuel their self regulation better, but also too, like I said, they're more likely to intuitively develop self regulation. self regulate cognitive systems to self regulate.
[14:15] Ian: Yeah, that makes sense. There's, I think there's a lot of misconceptions and myths about dopamine and it's, it's, it's a complicated thing. So you've mentioned the prefrontal cortex, I think a few times. Um, and again, this is something that I hear a lot that I've heard people say that we don't have reliable access to the prefrontal cortex.
[14:33] I don't really even know what that means, but what is the prefrontal cortex and what's happening is that Uh, there, for ADHD brains, you've mentioned executive functions and planning and that's kind of what tends to be happening in there, but from a neurochemistry, neurological point of view, what's going on?
[14:49] Jon: Well, I mean, prefrontal cortex, basically we're describing a geographical area of the brain. And in this case, we're talking about the part that's sort of right behind your forehead. Um, and, and that part of the brain, we think developed a bit later in, in humans. It's allowed us to do a lot of, um, very, um, Directed attention, attentional tasks.
[15:10] It probably has a role in terms of things like object permanence. So in other words, we can, we can visualize things. We can, we can, uh, imagine things more effectively, but in the context of ADHD, we tend to talk about prefrontal cortex in terms of attention. And then we get, as we go back into the brain, we go back through the rear of the prefrontal cortex and we get back towards, um, the, the center of the brain, we're actually looking more at emotion.
[15:40] And so in between that, there's some sort of crossover, which is what we theorize is, is, the seat of executive function, keeping in mind executive function is a theoretical model. We don't have, we don't know that there's an executive function brain or part of the brain or anything else. But we, we, what, what it's come from is an interpretation of how people are observed to self regulate their behavior and particularly the relationship between emotional regulation and attentional regulation.
[16:09] So if we think about that, then we think about what current theory around emotion is. And if you wanna look at some great research on this, Lisa Feldman Barrett has been doing wonderful research for many years and is very, um, very, uh, popular now in terms of re redefining how we interpret what emotions even are. Um, it's not to do with ADHD, but it's always interesting to look outside of
[16:34] ADHD. Um, so when we want to look at that relationship, we have to start moving into thinking about a new way of looking at the brain, which is called neural networks, which I think has got far more utility than just the straight old, you know, the emotional center to an attentional center, because it actually incorporates far more areas of the brain.
[16:57] But once again, It's in terms of us understanding or trying to interpret what we're seeing in our behavior. It's far more useful because we can again look at manipulating it.
[17:09] Ian: Yeah. Fascinating stuff. And I think, yeah, we'll maybe talk a little bit about that more when you come on to the podcast again, to talk about motivation and things like that. So fascinating stuff. The next thing I wanted to ask you about, which I've only started to hear about relatively recently, and maybe it's been around in, in, you know, In the neuroscience world for ages, but this is what's called the default mode network and task positive network So I think the it's DMN and TPN.
[17:39] I always get really confused about these So what what what are those things and what what's going on again in our brains with ADHD?
[17:50] Jon: Right. So they're, they're the neural networks are what two of the neural networks I was referring to. There were more than two, I think there's at least seven last time I looked, but, um, it's, it's a new emerging research area. Um, it was, um, when I left pharmaceuticals and moved into coaching, it was, it was sort of very new.
[18:07] So we're talking about 12 years ago, we're seeing a lot of the research starting to come out. But basically, it's looking at the brain in a different way because it's looking at it in a very functional context. And, um, You know, where we we've got a new opportunity to see how the brain works through things like functional MRIs, where we can actually see the electrical, electrical, functional functionality of the brain as it's working.
[18:32] So you can get someone, you can strap someone up, get them to do a task and actually see what parts of the brain are lighting up and in what order. Which is very, very cool. And once again, we're observing something and trying to understand it. And, um, you know, you get someone who's doing current research in the area who could describe it far better than I.
[18:50] But at a functional level, for me, I look at it from default mode network is basically our walking around network. It's, it's, it's, um, basically around the limbic region, going back to the cerebellum now, the, the, and a little bit into the prefrontal cortex or the back of the prefrontal cortex. And what, what makes that interesting is that, okay, that's where we used to have emotions.
[19:12] It's also where we have access to the amygdala, um, which traditionally has been associated as a fear center, although more current research talks about it as a contrast center. Um, which is important. I'll explain why in a minute. And then, um, the cerebellum is about memory. So it goes, well, one of its big features is about memory.
[19:32] So in a very simplistic way of looking at it, the default mode network allows us, as one of its features, to walk around, see a contrast in our environment, something that stands out as different. So that's where, you know, I think it's more useful to look at the amygdala in that context rather than in a fear context.
[19:52] Because fear is the end result. It's the end emotional interpretation. It's not actually what the functional part of the brain would be. So then if we go back from there and think, well, okay, so I'm walking around. I see a contrast in my environment. Let's say, you know, It's a throaty V8 engine roaring in the street and terrifying all the Teslas.
[20:11] Now, if I was ever, now that's, that's going to alert to me, there is something out of the ordinary in my environment that, that deserves my attention. Now, what I'm really trying to decide very quickly, is it motivational? What form of motivation does it, does it stimulate? Is it something I want to motivate towards or something I want to motivate away from?
[20:30] So, you know, is it, is it got opportunity or threat? So the default mode then. And this is what we think it's doing is accessing cumulative memories that we have in a very rough fuzzy logic sort of way to say, what does that remind me of? Now, if I got run down by a V8 at some point in my life, it probably is not going to remind me of something good.
[20:53] So I'm probably going to have a very adverse immediate response to it. Like I won't even think about it. It'll make me jump. However, if I happen to be a bit of a motorhead and love a big throaty engine, it might be something I want to motivate towards because I've got a very positive association with it.
[21:09] And obviously we form these associations based on, you know, the frequency that we get them, but also with the, um, the significant, the emotional significance of them, where you see where people with a lot of trauma can be very, very quickly and very significantly conditioned to a response because it was such a profound experience for them.
[21:29] Now, so that's default mode. So that's what really fast and dirty way of seeing the future. However, it's based on the past. It's not prospective. So if we just did that, we'd be running around reacting to everything. Okay. So, um, which probably wouldn't work out most of the time. So what we do is we have access to our attention.
[21:50] So remember we said prefrontal cortex, well, the task positive network, um, which is also referred to as the central executive in some areas. Is where we turn on attention effectively. So we have to switch from this default mode network and transfer over to the task positive. And the FMRI scans that I've seen of it show a significant reduction in the default mode as we turn on the task positive.
[22:16] So what that suggests is we're turning down on emotional response. So we're turning off the alarm to turn on attention to look at detail, because you ever tried to look at detail with an alarm going off in the back of the back of the room, like next to impossible. So you, you focus on the detail. Now we're seeing stuff here and now we're still seeing it with a bit of bias, of course, because we can't escape that.
[22:40] But basically we're now looking at it more objectively. And when we look at that, we can make, we can make a more informed decision. So, okay, maybe I did get run down by a V8 once, but I look at that V8 and, Oh, it's actually a pretty cool looking car. And, and you know, there's a nice looking person driving it.
[22:57] And, and now I'm thinking, Oh, I might want to go and have a look at that car. Now, now I've decided it's not a threat. It's something that actually has other appealing factors that I might go and check out. Um, so, um, so in other words, what we do is we can use that attention to create, to to create a new decision about what we're going to do agency about what we're going to do next.
[23:19] And then we do something really cool. We, we summarize that into a new emotion. We associate a new emotion with that sound. Now that's not such a bad sound. That's, it might be benign or it might be even appealing. And if you think back, there's lots of examples through life where you can imagine, you can remember times something that you maybe were repulsed by, but when you looked at it in a different light or had a different experience of it, you're able to create a new association with it.
[23:47] And I think that's a really exciting opportunity for growth. Emotional growth.
[23:53] Ian: Definitely. So in the ADHD brain is, I've heard that we tend to be kind of locked more in the DMN network more than the task positive network. And is that is that true? And how do we get more towards the task positive network when we actually need to get stuff done?
[24:12] Jon: Yeah. So it's, I mean, yeah, I suppose we, we careful how we talk about it. I guess I think you described it pretty well, but it's, it's more like that. So if we think about how do we move from default mode to task positive. So it appears that we require more energy to turn on the attention. And I think this is what's fed some of the theories around it being a later evolution in our brain.
[24:36] Um, the whole lizard brain thing is not real. I think that the current research doesn't support that, but definitely our brains have changed as we've evolved as animals. But, um, if we think about that, we need energy to turn on that. In other words, dopamine, we need availability of dopamine to turn on attention.
[24:53] We don't appear to have a dopamine problem in that default mode network. With ADHD, that system is up and firing. Right. So. And if we think about this, that if I need greater X, if I need access to access to dopamine to turn on my attention, and I know I don't have it, then it's going to be hard to shift from default mode to task positive.
[25:15] And in fact, there was some small, I haven't, haven't checked it lately, but there, there have been some small studies, fMRI studies done where they've shown that as the task positive network activates, the default mode network doesn't turn down like it should. So the task positive doesn't, isn't as robust in its activation.
[25:35] So our attention is not turning on as strongly as it could, but at the same time, our default mode is staying fired up, which the suggestion from that research was it might be why we retain, we remain so distractible when we're focusing on things.
[25:50] Ian: Yeah, yeah, yeah, really, really interesting stuff. And I want I do want to get back to your your thoughts on making emotions because that is mind blowing. But we maybe talk about that in the next episode. We're almost out of time. In fact, we kind of are out of time. But I do want to quickly ask you but there's a few other things.
[26:06] So maybe if you could look, this is an impossible task to go through this really quickly. But There's, does the, there's the parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervous systems. I always get these mixed up, but one is described as the fight and fight or flight one and the rest and digest one. Yeah. Uh, so like, do these systems have a, you know, how, how, how are those kind of, um, affected by ADHD?
[26:32] Uh, I find that I'm in, tend to be in the fight or flight mode a lot and that kind of the anxious state and I find it difficult to switch back into the the rest and digest sometimes. Is that an ADHD thing? What's going on? Hmm.
[26:46] Jon: yeah, again, I mean, we're talking about a functional outcome of, of ADHD. So if we're, if you know, if, and it depends on the person with ADHD, um, then there are a lot of people out there with ADHD who particularly inattentive, who, who may spend much more time in parasympathetic and, and, and don't get riled up very easily at all.
[27:09] But in terms of when we are having that Fight, flight, freeze response. And my wife actually wrote a fantastic, she's Monica Hassel. She's also, um, an ADHD coach. She's written a fantastic paper a few years ago called the fourth F because she proposed that there was, um, a, um, uh, a fourth F in fight, flight, and freeze, which was fib.
[27:31] In other words, we tell fibs or lies to, to fend. And if you look at kids, the kids do it, but we do it as adults and they're not manipulative lies. They're more like defensive misleadings or fabrications. But if we think about that state, what we're doing in that state is yes, you're getting an adrenaline hit.
[27:48] You're going into some sort of self preservation. It's usually heavily attached to anxiety. And I've got to say, anxiety is prolific amongst people with ADHD. Um, and, and even if, Very commonly people aren't aware that what they've been experiencing is anxiety. I had a client today, very clever person who, um, has obviously been ADHD her entire life.
[28:14] Um, and when we talked about anxiety, she suddenly thought about it and thought, Oh my goodness, was that anxiety? Was, was threatening myself to do things, worrying that if I didn't do things immediately, it would fail. Right. Forget. Um, was that anxiety? And then she said, was this great sense of negative pressure on me all the time?
[28:34] Was that anxiety? And I said, yes, definitely. So that's that system that we're utilizing. So there's two things to think about that one is in the appropriate measures. It's, it's a very useful system. Every neurological system is useful, right? But even, even distractions are useful in the appropriate context, right?
[28:53] But the, the problem with, um, ADHD is that, as you mentioned, we can find ourselves pushed into that space too often because we get there when we feel out of control. Which, if you have an inconsistent dopamine availability, you're gonna feel out of control because you're not self regulating effectively.
[29:12] The other thing to think about, too, is if you look at things like cortisol. We know that as cortisol levels increase, that's very useful to us because cortisol helps us activate and solve problems. But, when we can't solve the problem, it goes too high. And when it goes too high, it suppresses dopamine availability.
[29:31] So we now are getting stressed and we can't think straight anymore. So what do we do? We flick back into the four Fs and we react and that's what we do. Now that an interesting alternative byproduct of that I've seen with ADHD and I see this very commonly in intelligent women. Um, not exclusively, but I just see my clinical experience is predominantly more intelligent women is, um, is that women get very good at using anxiety as an activation tool that self threat that if I don't do it now, I'll fail or I'll make sure I bring everything forward as though it's due tomorrow.
[30:13] And that makes me activate. Unfortunately, that doesn't keep working, but um, it seems to be effective to a point for them, but at a significant cost. So, that would be something I would be very conscious of changing, because I think that is one of those things that is that, the big unseen of impact of ADHD.
[30:35] And, and often it gets written off as this other anxiety, but often my experience has been they're very correlated.
[30:43] Ian: fascinating. Yeah, Dr. Tamara Rosier was talking about the six bad tools that many of us can have used as a motivation technique and anxiety is definitely one of them. Uh, yeah, I might have might have been known to use that myself a few times, but we are out of time, Jonathan. Oh, my goodness. I just feel we've only Just dipped our toe in this world. I think we probably need a part two in the future and we can go deeper Thank you so much for showing all your thoughts with us. You do have an amazing book. I've got it on order It's called decoding doing adhd solutions for procrastination And we're going to talk a little bit more about that in the next episode on that Thank you so much.
[31:23] Jonathan any kind of Final words of encouragement. Obviously, we've talked about the neurology here. But what would be your kind of final message for people who've been listening, that there is hope and there is a way forwards with all of this?
[31:36] Jon: absolutely. Well, first of all, and thank you for having me and thank you for doing this podcast because it's these sorts of conversations that we, and, you know, having had Tamara on recently I've met Tamara and she's wonderful. And, um, so there's, there's having these sorts of conversations are invaluable. The thing I'd say to everyone out there is.
[31:54] Whatever you know about ADHD, there's always more to learn. However, the secret is, I think, we want to get ourselves to a point where we achieve our intentions reliably. Our intentions invariably are the right thing to be following. Um, and they're the measure of who we are. We can learn to self regulate more effectively.
[32:17] So those biases, some people call them superpowers. I prefer to think of them as functional biases. We can use them to our advantage instead of our depriment. So, um, Please, the reason I work in ADHD is because people with ADHD are nothing but unrealized potential. And with even the fact that you've achieved heaps already, there's so much more that you can tap into and, and most importantly is a very happy and rewarding life.
[32:47] Ian: Awesome. Thank you, Jonathan. Well, you can find out all the show notes for this, you can connect with Jonathan, just go to smart ADHD dot me. And finally, this episode and all the details will be there. Thank you, Jonathan. And until next time, I encourage you to be smart with your ADHD. Toodaloo!
