[0:35] Ian: Welcome back to the smart ADHD podcast This episode is the smart ADHD guide to emotional dysregulation, and I'm really excited to bring back Dr. Tamara Rosier onto the show. She's had quite a diverse professional journey, and that's encompassed roles as a college administrator, professor, leadership consultant, high school teacher, ADHD coach, and a business owner. And through these, she has gained valuable insights into ADHD and its impact on individual lives. She's the founder of the ADHD Center for West Michigan, and guides a dedicated team of coaches, therapists, and speech pathologists in assisting individuals, parents, and families as they develop a deep understanding of themselves and acquire practical skills to navigate life with ADHD.
[1:20] Her books, Your Brain's Not Broken, and the new one, You, Me, and Our ADHD Family, offer practical strategies for addressing the potent emotional dimensions of living with ADHD. And emotions is what we're talking about today. Emotional dysregulation. How do you navigate this? What are the strategies to work with emotional dysregulation?
[1:42] It's all in this episode. Let's get on with it right now.
[1:44] Hello, I'm Ian Anderson Gray, and this is the smart ADHD podcast.
[1:59] Now if you're a smart, creative entrepreneur or business owner navigating your life with ADHD, This is the podcast for you. Now, I'm no ADHD expert, but I'm eager to share my story on what I've learned by talking with experts, as well as digging into the personal ADHD stories of successful creatives and entrepreneurs.
[2:22] I was diagnosed at age 46, and it answered so many questions in my life. But of course, that was in many ways, only the start of my journey. So let's learn together. Smart stories, smart strategies, smart ADHD.
[2:49] Welcome back to the show, Tamara. It's great to have you here. Thank you for coming back. And in today's episode, we're going to be talking about emotional dysregulation because When I went down the whole rabbit hole of ADHD looking into this, I was thinking about procrastination, maybe perfectionism hyperactivity, particularly in the mind and stuff like that.
[3:11] But then I remember when one of our first coaching sessions, you mentioned this whole emotional dysregulation thing, and I thought, okay, What's that? I just, it wasn't number one in my list of things that I thought were an issue and then you started talking and I started to realize, Ah, okay, she's right.
[3:30] I wanted to ask you before we get onto emotional dysregulation one thing that you've said to me sent to us as a family, like ADHD people or people with ADHD tend to have very big emotions and following my curiosity, what why is that? Why do we have big emotions?
[3:48] Tamara: Reason why is if we had reliable access to our prefrontal cortex, we would be able to modulate our emotions easier. But those ADHD don't have reliable access. So we go to a different part of the brain called the limbic center. And that's the seat of emotions. So we see something and then we ask, how do I feel about this?
[4:12] And we have feelings about everything. And I just, a little exercise for your listeners right now, just wherever you are, look around you, whatever your sensing smells, textures, just check in. What feelings do I have about these things? There's, there are two chairs in my office that we have eight rooms where we could see clients and two of these chairs have a velvet on it.
[4:43] It's like a velvet overlay. I love sitting in those chairs because as I listen to clients, my fingers run over that velvet and kind of trace, right? The outline of the velvet. Do you see how I have that? However, there's some chairs at my office that I hate sitting in. They make weird sounds. It's like this fake pleather stuff.
[5:07] It's gross. It's not even real pleather. I'm sure it's fake pleather. It's gross. And we sit down and it makes a weird sound. It makes I don't like the feeling of it. Do you hear I have feelings. It's gross. about everything. And if your listeners are playing along at home, you guys have feelings about everything too.
[5:28] So let me explain it this way. Let's imagine a number line one to 10. One is low emotion, just, whatever. I don't care. 10 is big emotion. Now remember, 10 can be happy, or it can be sad or angry, but it's the intensity of the emotion. We're talking about intensity here. A lot of people without ADHD, by the way, it took me forever to learn this, people without ADHD live in the area of 4, 5, and 6 on that number scale.
[6:04] Boop. They just go through life. Yep, that was inconvenient. Not happy with that. Nope. We're not doing that. Meanwhile, you and I, we either have a one or a ten! Or maybe a two or a nine, if we're having a great day. But our brains go from low emotion to high emotion. And we do it quickly. Boom boom.
[6:27] Does that ring true for you?
[6:28] Ian: It does. It's. And it's very quick to change. And I've noticed this with our kids, like one minute. It's like complete emotional breakdown, you know, particularly when we are trying to get to school in the morning. And then the next minute is, oh, everything's great and da.
[6:44] And. I actually started to look at my own life and it's perhaps not quite like that, but it's pretty close. It's pretty close to that. And yeah, it's interesting about the emotions of things, like it could be the clothes that you wear. Are they comfortable at the room that you're in people?
[7:00] And I think, we're quite empathetic people and intuitive people. And it's probably all linked with that as well. So that realization that I am a highly emotional person and I think stereotypically, as speaking as a man here, like men aren't supposed to be or they're seen as, not as, as emotional as, so I, or. I've thought for a while maybe, I don't know, I'm not being manly enough or something like that. So I, and also I think ADHD people can often be people can say, Oh, you're too sensitive with sensitive people. And does that is that all tied up with the same kind of thing with
[7:37] Tamara: tied up. Yes. And remember, we feel the same range of emotions. Meaning happiness, sadness, we feel the same types of emotions. But those of us with ADHD, we feel them very intensely. And mornings are a great time to talk about in families, especially everyone's trying to get out of the house and we all have failure to launch issues, right?
[8:04] We all Oh, I have to go back in the house. I left my lunch. Oh, I forgot this. I forgot this. So, we're like, Hey, let's just keep it calm this morning. So we're just trying to keep everyone at a one or two. All we're trying to do is get out of the house, A neurotypical person would be at the just the right emotional level because not too hot and not too cold.
[8:24] They're Goldilocks, right? I'm just going to be have enough anxiety so that I'm aware, but not so much that I shut down. You're trying to get kids out of the house, and they're at a one or two. Whatever, I don't care, I don't know, whatever. And then a parent starts yelling at them to get them to pay attention, and then all of a sudden everyone's at a ten.
[8:47] And then you're dropping your kid off at school, they're mad, you're mad, and you're like, where am I going wrong? And so this is an example of ADHD families.
[8:56] Ian: That sounds quite familiar.,
[8:58] We'll put it that way. So we've talked about big emotions and there's a neurological reason for this dysregulation. It's we do struggle to, to regulate it and neurotypical adults. Probably along the way they learn how to regulate their emotions.
[9:13] That all makes sense to me. One thing that has really helped me, one reason of many that you've really helped us are these analogies. You've mentioned the failure to launch idea. That's been really helpful. The other idea, the other kind of concept is the whole swimming pool thing.
[9:31] And people thinking, what Ian? What are you on about? Tell us about the swimming pool analogy because that was that really helped us understand this.
[9:38] Tamara: yeah thanks for bringing that up. In fact this is in my new book. I have two chapters on the swimming pool. Because I think if we can use this metaphor in our families, or even just with ourselves, that it will help us. Everyone use your imaginations, imagine, that everyone, including those without ADHD, have a swimming pool.
[10:01] And this swimming pool is filled with big, intense emotions. And if we jump in there, we're feeling those intense emotions. Now, people with ADHD, they have a lifeguard on duty. That lifeguard is called the prefrontal cortex. And, You know how lifeguards are like, walk, please. No, no glass in this area.
[10:23] They're trying to keep you safe, and the prefrontal cortex will do that. And ADHD people also have a fence surrounding the pool. So not just, you just can't go for a running leap into this pool. Those of us with ADHD, as you might have guessed, we don't have a lifeguard on duty. And there's no fence around it.
[10:43] So sometimes we're just be bopping through life and we fall, we landed our pool of big emotions and we're like, how did I get here? We're flailing about. And so those of us with ADHD need to practice pool awareness. In other words, how close am I to this pool? Am I going to fall into the pool if I do this?
[11:05] So we want to just keep our awareness of, wow, every time I use this example, people are going to just think I'm crazy. But every time I get into a car that's too hot, immediately I'm tempted to jump in my pool. Why is this car so hot? This is ridiculous. Guess what? It's hot from sitting in the sun all day and you parked in the sun.
[11:28] This is quite logical. But my feet are already dangling in the pool like I'm ready to jump in. And so now I've learned to go, Hey, listen, you're approaching your car. It's going to be hot. What are we going to do? Do we need to jump in the pool today, Tamara, over this? No. don't we just look at the pool and how close we're getting?
[11:49] Also do this in relationships. Let's say you're in the line at a bank. I don't know if people go to banks anymore. I don't think I go that frequently, but you're in line. Okay, let's make a grocery store because we go there. You're in line at a grocery store and the person checking out is very rude.
[12:09] For an ADHD person, that could push us in our pool. Instead, I've learned to go, I don't need to jump in the pool over this. That person is having a rotten day and I leave it there. It's not going to push me into my pool.
[12:23] Ian: So that's really helpful. But they think the thing that I find myself, even after working with this is that one minute I'm not in the pool. And then the next minute I'm in the pool! How did I get there? And you're talking to yourself and you're saying, Tamara, da.
[12:39] How do we get to the point where
[12:42] Tamara: Yep.
[12:43] Ian: we realise we're just about to get in our swimming pool? How do we stop that from happening?
[12:49] Tamara: yep. So here's the thing. The pool is not a bad place. So if you're experiencing grief a year ago I lost a dog and she was such a good dog and I loved her so much. And let me tell you, I fell in the pool over it. For a couple weeks. In fact, if I keep talking about it, I'll just jump in that pool again.
[13:12] It was okay for me to be in that pool because I was sad. What's not okay when I'm in the pool is to splash people or try to drag people in with me. So I need to understand, is this an appropriate pool usage for me? By the way, if someone tells me good news a friend told me that she was pregnant, I have to tell you, I just jumped right in.
[13:36] I just cannonballed right into that pool. I'm like, I am thrilled for you.
[13:41] Ian: it can be, it's not always negative emotions, this. That's, I think it's important to say.
[13:46] Tamara: Yes. It's intense emotions. So I cannonballed in the pool like, I am thrilled for you. I know you've wanted this. I know it's taken a while and my heart is soaring for you. And of course, I got teary eyed.
[14:00] She's a friend. I've been praying with her about this. I wanted her to have this, right? So I jumped in the pool. But again, I need to know when I'm in the pool, is this a good use of swim time for me? Because extreme emotions will cost energy. So what about the times when we are just dancing around the pool, we fall in, and we don't want to be there. At that point our pool awareness failed for some reason, and we're like, whoopsies, I'm in the pool. In my book I talk about the pool rules for families, so that, don't push other people into their pools, don't pull people into their pools don't threaten. I'm going to jump in my pool if you do that.
[14:44] Excuse me, there's rules about this, but once you're in the pool, you need to understand how to get yourself out. And that means calming down your body and then calming down your brain. And so you need to find a flotation device. First, you look around, what are these flotation devices for me? And so you grab a hold of something.
[15:04] so that you can think and start to calm down your body. Then you need to start to think, how could I swim to the side? Now you're engaging your brain. How can I actually swim to the side? Remember, the first step is I'm not drowning. I'm sitting here floating. I'm fine. And that's your body, just calming down your body.
[15:26] There's different ways to do that, but you've got to calm down the body at first. Then you think, how can I swim to the side? And crawl off out of the pool and you wipe yourself out with a towel and go, huh, what did I just learn from that little pool episode?
[15:41] Ian: Yeah. And that, I love that question because that's a constructive question. It's all too easy to then almost get back in the pool and say, Oh, I just, why did I get in the pool? I'm just also bad. And that brings me on to the other kind of thing that I found helpful is that, At first, when you were talking about the swimming pool analogy, I was thinking about the times when I might be angry or frustrated on splashing around, but there have been times, and I think you mentioned that way, you almost, just sinking down to the bottom and you're almost wallowing in this.
[16:13] It could end up being self pity. It could, but it could be like a deep sadness. And so there are those different emotions and are there different strategies depending on the type of emotion for us to get out of the pool?
[16:25] Tamara: First, we want to understand our pattern. So when I tend to fall in a pool, I want to splash people, right? Like I'm not going to swim alone. I'm splashing people. You, when you fall into your pool, you're like, I'm just going to sink to the bottom and I'm just going to sit here on the bottom and think, and you have little bubbles coming up every once in a while.
[16:46] And so there are two different strategies, right? But we, you and I each have the responsibility to get ourselves out of the pool. It's, I was working with a couple and the husband kept thinking it was his wife's responsibility to rescue him from the pool. And he would say things like she's the one who pushed me in the pool because she knows she shouldn't ask me this. I'm like, no sir, that's all on you. There's different strategies when you're in there. If you are sinking to the bottom, that means you're in the flight or hiding or playing dead like a possum, right? It means with your emotions, you're like, I'm just going to sit here. I don't even know what to do with my emotions.
[17:33] I don't even want to do anything. I'm just going to sit here. To sit at the bottom of the pool. People who tend to lean more towards depressive feelings lean, tend to be sitting at the bottom of the pool. So at that time, you do need to calm down your body again, reassure it. I am going to be okay.
[17:56] This feeling will pass. I don't have to be at the bottom of the pool. And then, and obviously seek professional help if you can't get out of the bottom of the pool, right? But then slowly float to the top and then start to engage your brain. Remember, the pattern is body, then brain. I calm down my body.
[18:16] I reassure my body I'm safe. And then I swim to the side. For people who lean more towards anger, I hate to say this about myself, but I fall into the pool. I'm like, I'm mad that I'm here. And now I'm going to pull or, swat other people. And for me, I have to first reassure my body listen, you're having a fight response. Do you really need to fight right now? Who are you actually fighting with? And, I'm just fighting with the air, right? So I have to calm down my body, remind myself, and through breathing, through other exercises, vagal nerve exercises, tapping, whatever you do, calm it down and then engage my brain.
[19:00] How do I swim to the side? How do I get out of the pool?
[19:03] Ian: That makes sense. It's such a helpful analogy, I think, for something that so many of us. Have struggled with throughout our lives and being aware of it. I think that's for me, at least that was the, that's the first step. And it's a massive step and then working out the strategies.
[19:18] And there is, this is what this podcast is about. There is hope there are strategies to help with this. And one, another thing, just as we finished, the other thing that I've, we found very helpful as a family is the whole idea of telling each other. pool stories. And I can't actually think of a previous example, but there might be a time when I got really frustrated and I jumped in my pool.
[19:42] And at the time it feels like the most frustrating thing ever. And then later on, I think, what was that about? And so telling each other about those things, you can actually learn from each other. And we can learn more about each other and what is helpful for us and what isn't helpful. So tell us a little bit more about, about that, that, that idea.
[20:01] Tamara: So here's what I found my clients were doing. They'd fall into the pool and they'd either sink to the bottom or be splashing or doing something in the pool. And in this case we're talking about negative emotions, mostly. They swim to the side, they get off they, get out of the pool, they dry themselves off.
[20:21] And then they're like, Oh, I am so ashamed that I jumped in the pool. And you know what that shame does? Pushes them right back in the
[20:30] Ian: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
[20:31] Tamara: And then now they're going to sink to the bottom, because shame is heavy. And so now they're clutching this weight, sinking to the bottom. And I've noticed that my clients will keep doing that.
[20:41] So what I want my clients to do, is to tell themselves and other people pool stories. And if you are related to other people with ADHD, we get each other's pool stories. And it's a way of kind of bonding. Hey, guess what? Yesterday I had a chaotic morning. It was really tough. There was so much happening.
[21:04] I fell in my pool and I guess what? It wasn't one thing. It was just all these other things that made the deck of the pool slippery. And I tried to calm myself down, but guess what? I lost my balance and fell in. And yeah, it took me a while to figure out, Tamara, your body is safe. You don't have to be in fight or flight.
[21:23] You have to swim to the side. And I thought, how will I swim to the side? And so I took a couple seconds, I did some deep breathing, and then I made myself a cup of tea. I love oolong tea, and I think a proper cup of tea will help me. And guess what it did? And so then I was able to swim to the side. Get out of the pool.
[21:43] Do you see? That's my pool story.
[21:45] Ian: Yeah.
[21:45] Tamara: then later, I'm like, oh, I fell into the pool and it affected other people. I feel so badly about that. What do I do with this bad feeling? And then I tiptoe close to the pool to go, I'm probably a lousy human being. Maybe I should just jump in the pool and think about those self loathing thoughts for a while.
[22:05] And then I thought, no, let's not do that. Let's circle back to the people you affected and ask for forgiveness. And say, hey, I affected you. I'm really sorry about that. Do you see how this can help us do better with our emotions instead of just constantly swimming?
[22:22] Ian: Yeah, absolutely. And it's. It's important to be responsible. You can't just, we're not kids anymore. We can't just have an emotion, jump in our pools and just expect everything's going to be okay afterwards. And often we don't think that, we feel those emotions deeply. We feel regret and all those kinds of things, but we can actually do something positive about it.
[22:41] Yeah it,
[22:42] Tamara: here? I'm going to interrupt you just a quick second. I see a lot of adults who are very smart and smart. Not taking responsibility for their pool behavior. And they're smart, and they learned coping mechanisms to go, Okay, but the circumstances push me in my pool. And even if that's true, you're in your pool.
[23:01] You've got to take responsibility to get yourself out. And I see a lot of people blaming the environment or other people. And really, once we're in the pool, it's only us. It's our responsibility.
[23:15] Ian: yeah. No I think you're so right and it's difficult to hear, like often. I think becau because it is, let's be frank about this. Jumping on a pools, particularly in, in this negative emotion thing, it's exhausting, why would you want to live your life continually like that?
[23:30] Finding a strategy to help and it's not as you said that you gave an example of you, falling or jumping in your pool recently is not this is not something that we're going to be able to completely eradicate. We are highly emotional people, but there are strategies and we Yes, we should be.
[23:46] We should take responsibility. But there are some strategies to help and I feel like I'm starting on the right path. I'm going in the right right, right direction. I was about to say wrong direction, right direction. And that feels good, but sometimes I'm going to, I'm going to fall in my pool or I'm going to jump in my pool.
[24:03] I'm going to sink down to the bottom of my pool. And being able to share those stories with other people. And that is another reason why I've launched this channel on this podcast, because this is not just me. It's not just Tamara. It's not just all the other guests we have on the show. It's we're here together.
[24:20] It's a community of people. We can hopefully we all get each other. We understand. And so if you want to share your pool story, feel free. I'm hoping to launch a community as I record this. We haven't got that yet, but we'll see how this podcast does. And it'd be great to have a community where we feel that we have
[24:40] that safe space to be able to talk about these things, but talk to if you have friends, particularly those who have ADHD or who are understanding, would you suggest that's a good thing to, to talk about these things?
[24:53] Tamara: Yes. And if I could add one more thing about us, and you brought it up earlier, we're very empathetic people. So if we see someone else in their pool, you know what we're tempted to do? Jump in after them.
[25:06] Ian: Yeah.
[25:07] Tamara: And I really, I was you presenting to a whole group a lovely church asked me to present to them about ADHD.
[25:16] And when I brought this up and said, we're not supposed to jump in after people. Now, if their life is at risk unless you're a trained professional, a lifeguard, right? A mental health professional, you don't go into the pool with someone. You can sit on the side, but we have to trust other people to be able to get out of their pool. for us to understand because we see someone we just want to, and you're feeling sad, I'm going to feel sad with you. And we're both in your, in the pool.
[25:46] Ian: And I think this is why. I have to regulate the amount of news that I consume. I just can't, I very rarely will watch the news and it's not because I don't care. It's because I care too much and I bring on the emotions of the world upon me. I was watching a video earlier about somebody who has ADHD and they were talking about anxiety.
[26:06] And then she then he said like in the first minute we had I had this dreadful time. My wife died recently. And then he put loads of pictures of it of them. And I was just like, I don't know this guy. But I just like my heart went out to him. And I thought, I can't watch this. I felt bad for switching it off. So I think we have to we do have to regulate we do. We're all different. It's like I also find There's certain like movies or certain dramas I can't watch because they emotionally, I just can't deal with it. So I think we have to work out what's best for us and we just need to know, you what is this going to be a quick route to the swimming pool or am I best doing something else?
[26:46] Tamara: Yeah. That's exactly it. And that's what I'm talking about. Know your pool. Know what puts you in the pool. And you're not being a coward by not following every detail of the world's news. Things are heartbreaking. And for those of us with ADHD, we're very sensitive. And if we think too long about it, it's heartbreaking.
[27:07] It's heartbreaking. And so we want to be understanding of our emotional energy.
[27:13] Ian: yeah. And let's be frank, the news corporations, they're selling stories, they're selling this to provoke our emotions. And so often they're told in a way that is not always sensationalized, but quite often that's the case. So we have to be aware of
[27:28] Tamara: the business.
[27:30] Ian: Yeah, it is. We've run out of time.
[27:33] It's been so helpful, Tamara. Thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it. You do need to check out Tamara's books. This is Your Brain's Not Broken. That is, I know it's helped so many people. Everyone I speak to who has ADHD always think thinking that they might have it. Is either reading that or they will be reading it very soon.
[27:53] And of course you've got your Other book, which is all about the family. You've mentioned that today, so you can check that on all good bookstores. And yeah, of course, if you've been affected, if you've if we've made you think today and you need help then. We recommend that you reach out to healthcare professional.
[28:12] Don't try and cope alone, reach out to, to get some professional help. That's really important. It could be coaching. It could be but just look into that. Definitely. So thank you, Tamara. It's been great to have you on the show and hopefully we'll see you again very soon.
[28:26] Tamara: Always love talking with you.
[28:28] Ian: Thanks Tamara. See you soon.
[28:29]
