[0:38] with these other sort of gifts and it hid your ADHD symptoms right?
[0:43] Ian: Hello and welcome back to the Smart ADHD podcast. Today we're taking a closer look at executive function and how it affects life with ADHD. Now this can often be to do with planning, focus and task completion amongst other things. Other things. It can feel like we're negotiating constant hurdles in our lives, but understanding executive function can make a massive difference.
[1:07] I'm honoured to be joined again by Dr Ari Tuckman. He's a psychologist, international speaker, and author well known for his work in ADHD. With years of experience and several acclaimed books to his name, Ari brings a wealth of knowledge to help us untangle the complexities of executive function. He'll be sharing practical strategies and explain how we can better manage these challenges to make our daily life just a little smoother.
[1:33] Let's get on with it, right now!
[1:34] Hello, and welcome to Smart ADHD Ari, it's great to have you back on the show. How are you doing?
[1:40] Ari: I am good, and I'm very happy to come and talk about this topic.
[1:44] Ian: Awesome. I'm looking forward to actually seeing you in person at the international ADHD conference, which is happening in Anaheim later this year, which is great. And I'm still on this. I'm still on this kind of journey. I'm no ADHD expert. I'm learning all these new words that I hadn't heard of before.
[2:00] And one of those words is executive function. And I'll be honest with you, Ari, I still When people talk about it, I have to, it actually takes me a few seconds to remind myself what that is, and maybe that is actually an executive function problem. But what actually is executive function?
[2:16] And what, why is this an issue for people with ADHD?
[2:19] Ari: Yeah. Executive functions became this buzzword some years ago, and I think, if you're new to ADHD, it'll be a new idea. But even if you're old to ADHD, so to speak, you've, you might have heard it a million times, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you really know what it means, like a lot of buzzwords.
[2:37] So I think it's important to have this conversation. And. So the executive functions are, they're a particular set of cognitive skills that allow us to manage our behavior in relation to the sort of challenges around us, right? Just like, we have many different abilities, in general, but the executive functions are a specific set that are about Managing our behavior in relation to time and in relation to future goals.
[3:08] And, different authors will slice and dice the executive functions differently in terms of they'll clump some things together, or they'll break some things apart, but, they're pretty much all talking about the same sorts of things. And we can talk here about what some of those executive functions might be.
[3:22] Ian: Yeah, and I believe what I've read about, and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, that neurologically speaking, I'm using big words now, It's to do with the prefrontal cortex. It's and people with ADHD tend to have less reliable access to that is that what is happening?
[3:37] Is that where the all this executive function stuff is happening in our brains?
[3:41] Ari: Yeah, exactly. So prefrontal cortex is the part like right behind your forehead. And, it's not that folks in the ADHD don't have any executive functions, right? You'd have to like a major brain injury for that to happen, but rather their executive functions. Sometimes don't operate as reliably as they would hope, so it's a matter of degree.
[4:04] We're not, kind, so to speak. And, this is why, Russell Barkley has this famous quote. ADHD is not a disorder of knowing what to do. It's a disorder of doing what you know, and we can basically think of the executive functions as what helps us do what we know, right?
[4:21] It helps us convert our good intentions into reliable actions.
[4:27] Ian: Yeah, no, that makes sense. What I find helpful here is to think about analogies or metaphors. And I've been thinking about the prefrontal cortex or executive functioning almost bit. It's almost like in a computer. It's like the RAM the memory the short term stuff Before it gets to storage and it feels to me like my RAM is either not I need more RAM Or it's just a little bit glitchy.
[4:49] That would be one way of looking at it the other thing that I've been thinking about is like our brain is like a city and And the prefrontal cortex is like the control center, which can which communicates with the rest of the city. But the problem is that there just aren't enough network cables.
[5:04] So it gets overpowered. And so the analogy I've been working on is well, it has to bypass some of that to what I call the Department of Emotional Affairs, otherwise known as I believe it's called the limbic system. So they tend to make decisions emotionally. Is that a kind of a reasonable analogy?
[5:22] What's actually going on? Is it a capacity problem that we've got?
[5:26] Ari: Yeah. I think this making the emotional response is what we talked about last time in terms of time management and feeling the future versus the present and all. But, one of, it is, it's about coordinating. And doing the best thing in that moment, there's lots of things we could do, but what's the best thing to do So, here's a real life example from yesterday. so yesterday she takes out the dog, we have this fenced in garden where we let the dog do her thing. So she drops the dog dumps the, stuff for the compost, and then walks down to the mailbox and gets the mail, and then starts flipping through the mail, which then hijacks her working memory, right?
[6:06] Her focus goes on the mail, and bam, knocks out, wait a second, I'm supposed to get Molly on my way back. And then left her out there for like an hour until my son came home and felt awful about it. I mean, Molly was fine. It was a nice day, but that's a great example of kind of a working memory glitch, right?
[6:24] Ideally, her working memory in a moment would be holding in the back of her mind. Remember the dog, right? But it got bam, knocked out. And again, like we all have these moments when you lock your keys inside, it's cause you forgot they were inside and not outside, right?
[6:39] Like we all have those moments, but that distractability of ADHD is basically that it's, there's like working memory glitches that happen.
[6:49] Ian: it's kind of almost like the glitch in the matrix, but not quite. You mentioned that we could look at some of the, the executive function tasks, what are the kind of things, that we're talking about?
[6:57] You mentioned like working memory. So that's maybe remembering things in short term memory, but what are the other things that are to do with executive function?
[7:06] Ari: Yeah in this case, the example I gave, it was really short term. I mean, it It was really like a minute or two of remembering, but, there's also something called perspective memory. So prospective memory, meaning remembering forward into the future. And that could be something like, Oh, when I get home, I have to ask my wife about the login for the whatever, or it could be, Oh, when I see you at the conference in two months, I need to bring a thing to give it to you. So two months from now when I'm packing, I should remember that. So it could be a shorter term. It could be a longer term, but that, realizing, oh wait, I'm packing, I was gonna get Ian that thing. So like popping that into memory and folks with ADHD are notorious for that, for forgetting those things, which then causes a lot of headaches later or in the moment, pausing.
[7:59] And either using hindsight, meaning looking back, what are the lessons of the past? If I thought, what are my experiences in similar situations? How do I apply that? Or forethought, meaning let me think ahead a moment about what it is that I need to do. So pausing to access that information, which, is going to change your decision of what you do, but if you don't, and this is like folks with ADHD often shoot themselves in the foot in ways that even they are like Damn it.
[8:30] Why did I do that? It's because they didn't pause to think Oh, wait a second. There's construction on that road. Don't go that way. Or if you do, you got to leave early, and then it's only when they're hitting traffic then. And it's again it's too late at that point. Then they remember like, ah, damn it.
[8:47] I knew this. Why did I do this again? So kind of repeating mistakes That they don't feel good about, obviously, that hindsight and forethought is part of it as well. There's the emotional regulation part. Like, Folks with ADHD tend to feel their feelings more and they wear them on their sleeve more.
[9:06] It's part of what makes folks with ADHD really fun to hang out with. But also if you're driven by the emotions of the moment, they may not be the best guides to , future outcomes, especially let's say if you're arguing with your spouse or your kids or your maybe your boss.
[9:21] So folks with ADHD are more likely to say something to their boss that gets them fired. I'm sure it's something every other co worker is also thinking, but most of the rest of them are able to remind themselves that it's nice getting a cheque every Friday. So they don't say it. But that person with ADHD really feels it and here it comes.
[9:41] And the fact that it's true, doesn't make you less fired like the boss doesn't want to hear it. There's that part of it as well.
[9:48] Ian: Yeah there's such a thing as oversharing I think it comes to this and it's being aware of that. So yeah sometimes I find myself like forgetting words, like just very simple words. And I just, it just, And then I get into this loop because I'm getting stressed and anxious that I can't remember the word and then that makes it worse.
[10:06] Ari: You'll never remember then.
[10:08] Ian: Yeah, exactly. It's I trained as a professional classical singer and I remember my final recital, I had to sing an hour's worth of music, all from memory, different languages. Oh my goodness, that was a struggle. And I think that was partly at the end of it, that's probably led to a bit of burnout, I think, as a result of all of that.
[10:27] But so that's memory. Is it also to do with processing things in our heads. So for example, this interview, I'm doing quite a few things. You might not think it, but I'm asking you questions, but I'm thinking about what you're saying.
[10:40] And then I'm thinking I've got some questions here, but I have to, I don't want to just read these questions. I want to think actually Ari said that was great. I want to lean into that, or maybe I need to ditch this. So there's a lot of things going on in my head. Is that, executive function stuff or is that something else?
[10:53] Ari: It absolutely is, right? Because as you're, you're both thinking, you're paying attention to what's happening in the moment. You're also trying to remember what did we just what have we already talked about? Because we don't want to repeat it, right? You've got these questions you're aiming towards that.
[11:08] You want to make sure you get in, but then you also want to let the conversation go where it's going to go. It's you're working memory juggling all of these things and, just in general, Trying to structure how this interview goes and to plan it out, but also be present in the moment.
[11:24] So yeah, there's, there is a lot of executive functioning happening in the, in this discussion, just as there might be in any discussion, right? If you're in a business meeting, or if you're even talking to a friend, maybe that's like whatever, who cares, but but sometimes, where it's that thing like, oh, I have an awesome idea, but don't interrupt, so There's that part of it too.
[11:44] So yeah, I think even this interview, you're using a whole lot of executive functions right now.
[11:50] Ian: Yeah, it's funny because I love doing these interviews, but I always find at the end of them, I'm partially energized and excited. But also partly I just want to go have a lie down in a darkened room because I feel like I've used a lot of energy as well.
[12:02] Ari: I think that says you're doing it right. I think the fact that you have both those feelings means you did it right.
[12:07] Ian: Yeah, no, that's good. I think and I think I've I have realized that is a good thing. So how does this affect smart ADHDers if if you're highly intelligent, I sometimes think that is not always it's not always a positive. I just wonder whether that kind of exacerbates the issue.
[12:24] What was your view on that? can that cause problems? Can we find ways around it? I'm going to I'm going to ask you about strategies next, but just particularly for smart ADHD is what's going on there.
[12:36] Ari: It really is a double edged sword being smart or likable or really capable in particular ways, obviously it's a great asset, and it makes life easier. It enables you to do bigger, more interesting things. So that's all good. The downside of it is, especially for younger people, not necessarily six year olds, but let's say 15 or 25 year olds is you can compensate.
[13:02] With these other sort of gifts, or as they say, you got by on smarts and charm and maybe a bit of luck and it hid your ADHD symptoms, right? People are like, Oh, she's fine. She's doing great. Yes, sort of, but she's killing herself extra hours every night. The teacher loves her and gave her an extension, but seriously she wasn't ready when it should have been, she's anxious or losing sleep or whatever.
[13:25] It can lead to more kind of struggle and suffering. I think it can also lead to stubbornly muscling through, right? Using your gifts to plow ahead. Rather than trying to find a better way or even being down on yourself about I'm so smart, but I'm so stupid.
[13:44] Why do I keep doing this? Or why do I keep waiting until the last minute? Always sucks. Why do I do this? Or quote, everybody else can do this so easily and quickly. Why does it take me so long? So all these sort of negative comparisons against, We'd say not actually real people, they're giving other people too much credit and yourself not enough.
[14:06] So there's a lot of sort of self esteem hits associated with that as well. But this is all sort of the dark side, so to speak. If you, once you start to understand your ADHD and just understand yourself in general and, see some of this stuff through a different lens.
[14:21] Have better ways of managing it feel more effective right then all those smarts and other good qualities can be mostly a strength and not so much that other side of the coin.
[14:33] Ian: yeah, definitely. I think you know, my experience before I was diagnosed. So undiagnosed ADHD my self esteem was rock bottom, I questioned my own intelligence, because of all those things that you mentioned. And that's why I think for me, that diagnosis took away so much guilt and shame. And yes, it was only the start of my journey.
[14:54] But that was a really positive thing. And So for people who I would never tell anyone to get diagnosed that's for them to decide. But for my own personal experience, it was a game changer for me. It was only the start of the journey. And yes, that was a dark time. We need to think about the positives moving forwards.
[15:13] And what are the kind of the strategies or the tips or I don't really like the word hacks, but, to, we know we've got an executive function issue due to the way our brains work , what are we going to do about that? We could wallow in our misery and just give up. That's not the
[15:29] Ari: always an option.
[15:30] Ian: I'm sure you've got some tips for us.
[15:31] Ari: Yeah absolutely. I think that it, I think it becomes a thing of knowing where you struggle, being honest about it. And then a lot of it is externalizing, meaning don't keep it inside your head, but make it external out in the world, meaning writing it down. Setting reminders, doing other things to offload some of those internal abilities.
[15:58] So, This is a dumb example, but whenever I talk to someone who says, oh, yeah, I don't. Have a calendar. I just remember everything, right? Like, Never do I think, Oh, my God, this person must have an amazing memory, right? Instead, what I think is dude, you must forget stuff all the time, but you don't even know it, so being intentional about using the tools that you need to use. And it's really like the proof is in the pudding. If what you're doing is working, then keep doing it. I don't care if you, if your schedule is written on your hand and it works well, I'd say keep doing it, but if it isn't working well, then let's find something that works better.
[16:39] And I think that this is where a diagnosis of ADHD can be so helpful because it cuts down the solutions that probably won't work, right? And it leads you to a shorter list of ADHD friendly strategies that are probably more likely to do the job. And even if you're not perfect, which you won't be, by the way who cares?
[16:58] It's Even being half better is still better, and maybe being half better is good enough, right? Again, don't have to be perfect, but maybe being half better gets you to a point where you feel pretty good about how it's working. Other people feel good enough about how it's working and life kind of moves on, right?
[17:16] So don't set this high bar that you're definitely not going to reach.
[17:21] Ian: Yeah, the curse of perfectionism. Not that I know anything about that. Moving on swiftly. Thank you so much, Ari. We are at a time I know you need to dash off. So just I'm going to be very good with my time management and my executive function and finish there. But thank you so much for coming on. I feel we've only scratched the surface. We've only really, talked about what executive function is the issue, but also some positive strategies.
[17:47] You have to come back on the show and talk a little bit more about that in the future. Thank you so much. You mentioned last time your website, all of that will be in the show notes. And of course, if you are in California in November, you can meet Ari in person,
[18:01] which would be awesome. it is. It's a hell of a gathering. I think it's an amazing experience. It's better than you think it's going to be. And it's 1 of those things where the things will happen. You didn't even know to think might happen in the sense of the people you meet and the stuff that comes out of it.
[18:18] Ari: It's for people who have ADHD or family members with ADHD or people who provide services or content for folks with ADHD. So it's this giant family gathering and I don't know, everybody there is awesome and friendly and supportive and it ends with a party on Saturday night. Like, why not come? So chadd.
[18:38] org is one of the ways to get there.
[18:41] Ian: Yeah, definitely. Well, All of that will be in the show notes at smartadhd. me. Thank you so much, Ari. It's been amazing. You've been so helpful giving insight and some strategies and hope for the future, which there definitely is for those of us who are navigating our lives with ADHD. Thank you so much.
[18:56] Ari: Absolutely. Thanks for the work you're doing.
[18:58] Ian: And thank you for plugging us into your ears for watching us on the YouTubes. And until next time, I encourage you to, be smart with your ADHD. Toodaloo!
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